Class Trees

[AceofRains]

X

Oh nooo not the poor devs doing what they’re paid to do!

Did you ever stop to think that the issue is trying to force a square peg into a round hole? Why not just let fights be fights and let people figure out what’s optimal? Like if you’re a Pugilist, being a Dancer or Monk at different times would be part and parcel of playing the class. And if you had both available for being tied to one class, very little people would complain about it because playing a lot of different jobs is the selling point of a job based final fantasy title. But they marketed the whole job system to you as a stand alone job as is instead of a job as a specialization, so you will always fail to see it as anything beyond that.

This may be an mmo, but in many of the final fantasy titles, there are optimal job/team strategies to beat certain bosses. That doesn’t mean a boss can’t be beaten with alternative strategies, but using an optimal strategy shouldn’t be somehow frowned upon, it should be complimented. Hardcore fights should require optimal strategies. Hardcore players will use what ever means necessary. For normal fights, you could do what ever you want. It’s also not complicated to design when in a fight something is more optimal. Boss hits back line a lot? Bring more Melee. Boss hits front line a lot? Bring more Ranged. Need a DPS check? Bring heavy hitters. Need better support because of status effects or guaranteed death? Bring utility. Trying to make it so every job can do all of these things manageably, or don’t deal with these things at all, makes them stale.

Honestly I think that trying to forcibly balance 20 jobs into complete equality of homogenization is the issue. Equality of that nature prevents uniqueness and achievement. And that’s really what sucks the fun out of this game.

You know what’s fun about League of Legends that keeps me coming back year after year? Every champion is unique. While they have their different times to shine, it’s always satisfying to play what’s meta and kick ass. Sure, the champion I like most might not be flavor of the month, but that doesn’t mean I can’t play it causally. But when I know I’m going for rank, I will play what’s meta and that should be encouraged.

[reyre]

not the poor devs doing what they’re paid to do!

You cant be this naive or stupid. The job of any developer is not to cater to the player base, is the develop somenthing that takes into consideration plenty of factors not just players, so no they are literally not to be paid to do what you are saying the should and you kind of missed the point there, as in they are struggling with the current version of the battle system why then should they try and redo the entire thing when for the most part is well recived? You are ignoring the idea that devs would not make their job harder just to accomodate somenthing they dont want to do and will take more resources than its worth. So once more they are not paid to do dumb work, like you suggest.

As for the rest of your comment, its very contradictory, for starters if you have more fun playing other games with more appealing systems than this one, why are you not playing those games? Instead you are trying to make this game more like the others or that is what it seems. But i digress back to the rest of your comment is still very stupid, this game is not made towards optimal startegies so your whole argument enters in contradiction with your previous comment of having flexibility, you can have one or the other. if you are flexible you cant have heavely optimal strategies, if you are going for hardcore you cant have that much flexibility. This enters the "devs dont like to apply resources in a dumb fashion" notion, because they have limited time and resources to do so, in fact most games fail beacause of what you are mocking, for example see "What happun?" in youtube by matt Mcmuscles for plenty of stories and comentary about it.

And you are talking about YOUR ideal version of this game, wheras i am talking about what this game is. This game is, for better or worse, able to accomodate every palyer and in any kind of content so you can clear savage and ultimates with every class no limits, what you are saying would go against this, i dont think this is the direction they want to go. You are also ignoring the fact that in someway what you wanted in the game was implented at some point and players did not like it, thus they remove it or are against it for example SMN and SCH which follow very closely what you want and people want them separated. It seems to me that you are ignoring some ingame examples.

You are assuming people would not complain based on nothing but hearsay, that is not a proper argument nor can it be used to prove any of your points. Using your own broken argument: why not let this game be this game and let people figure out what is optimal? Somehow that seems almost ironically fitting doenst it? I could prove your point wrong using contradiction or induction or even abduction at that but i doubt that you would even believe that, so lets just leave it at that.

[ItMe]

I think the point is for there to be a better combo. Part of the biggest complaints about jobs right now is about how homogenized they’re becoming.

It sounds like that would just be replacing one form of homogenization for another.
If there is a definitive best combo for a fight... You'd basically see only that 90% of the time.
My friend tells me that back in Heavensward less than half of the jobs got played in high end content.

[Mhaeric]

My friend tells me that back in Heavensward less than half of the jobs got played in high end content.

That's sort of true, but it would be more accurate to say that certain combinations of jobs had the status of being considered meta for high-end content and the other jobs had to compete for the limited remaining slots. All jobs participated, but some had a harder time getting in.

[Sqwall]

That's sort of true, but it would be more accurate to say that certain combinations of jobs had the status of being considered meta for high-end content and the other jobs had to compete for the limited remaining slots. All jobs participated, but some had a harder time getting in.

I don't understand what the big deal is to have one DPS do MORE damage then all the other classes. If each job was DESIGNED to COMPLIMENT other classes then it wouldn't matter how much damage they were doing in a raid, as long as I keep a certain buff up to push the other DPS to do more damage, or a bleed on a boss, etc;. I would LOVE to toss a buff or debuff on boss to take more damage if I knew the BLM was starting their BURST phase. With the logic everyone is saying just DPS the boss and avoid AOE to win! That's boring... The real challenge is in getting a group that has different skills to compliment the whole party, and HOW you use those skills.

RDM was such a disappointment to me when it was just another DPS. I was really hoping they would introduce the support class. A class devoted to just pushing the WHOLE group to heal more, DPS more, and tank better. But instead we got a DPS that has fallen behind this expansion and needed potency buffs to be worthwhile. This would be a different story if embolden was a 30 min buff then a RDM would be nice to have even though its does less damage then others, all of you nay sayers would be changing your tune if you could have embolden for 30 min. Sure bring the RDM! (but there DPS is crap) Doesn't matter because mine will be better!

Trees was just an idea to give our identities back, and suppose if the community knows better then the Devs then the Devs should listen. This is why we are LOSING our identities. The Dev team has really put themselves in a position and I don't know where this is heading come next expansion. But it is certain we are getting more skills to just DPS and that's about it. That is whats stupid imo.

[reyre]

Quote

So wait, like a ninja Trick Attack? I will say this again but versions of what you want exist and have existed in the game and they have been removed because of player feedback. The lost of identity is not because A dps JUST does damage. And you may say whatever you want, but a class with your ideas would be nerfed into obvlion because it would be too good, and no most of the "nay sayers" would instead ask for either every class has a 30 min buff like that or for RDM to be nerfed.
I really dont think that you understand how balancing works. To put an example in HW NIN had the lowest melee dps but because it had TA it was almost always more desiered than MNK, you may think that this is good BUT and i need you to pay attention here, it did not push MNK dps high enough to be worth bringing said MNK instead you brough a DRG (another support dps). So by giving NIN this super positive debuff MNK was meme for most of the expac. So you see there was somenthing like that before, BRD had it in the form of their songs and because of it MCH got cucked. Your idea will alienate jobs instead of making them have synergy and as response to this players would, very loudly, demand for a nerf or their own from of buff, which is why now MNK is trapped behind three layers of RNG because of brotherhood, a pointless buff that affects MNKs core rotation, see its not dps thing is a rotation thing and it has been pretty badly recived by almost all MNK mains. SEE my point there?

Actually let me be blunt Jobs right now are desing to complement other jobs, but is simply not enough.

[Sqwall]

So wait, like a ninja Trick Attack? I will say this again but versions of what you want exist and have existed in the game and they have been removed because of player feedback. The lost of identity is not because A dps JUST does damage. And you may say whatever you want, but a class with your ideas would be nerfed into obvlion because it would be too good, ad no most of the "nay sayers" would instead ask for either every class has a 30 min buff like that or for RDM to be nerfed. I really dont think that you understand how balancing works. To put an example in HW NIN had the lowest melee dps but because it had TA it was almost always more desiered than MNK, you may think that this is good BUT and i need you to pay attention here, it did not push MNK dps high enough to be worth bringing said MNK instead you brough a DRG (another support dps). So by giving NIN this super positive debuff MNK was meme for most of the expac. So you see there was somenthing like that before, BRD had it in the form of their songs and because of it MCH got cucked. Your idea will alienate jobs instead of making them have synergy and as response to this players would, very loudly, demand for a nerf or their own from of buff, which is why now MNK is trapped behind three layers of RNG because of brotherhood, a pointless buff that affects MNKs core rotation, see its not dps thing is a rotation thing and it has been pretty badly recived by almost all MNK mains. SEE my point there?

Actually let me be blunt Jobs right now are desing to complement other jobs, but is simply not enough.

Wow, someone is really salty about how much MNK sucked ...sucks. Hey man I have been there. Keep pushing for that complete overhaul the DEV team isn't working on. I wised up and changed my DPS main to MCH, you know the one with a coherent rotation and identity that needed a complete overhaul of the class. It also does quite a bit of damage to boot without RNG. You hang in there. Hopefully player feedback won't ruin Monk when SE decides to fix it.

[Mikey_R]

While I would agree that no two jobs should play the same, I am also of the opinion that no job should be left out of certain content just because it happens to lack some sort of utility. I will try and expand further by providing an example, in this case tank stuns/silence/interrupt.

Back in ARR and HW, all tanks could stun, they all done it differently, but they all could, however, only 1 could silence, that being PLD. This could in theory exclude certain groups from certain things, as an example having a DRK/WAR tank combo but needing a silence. When they made role skills, they added the capability to both stun and silence to all tanks. This would (in theory at least) mean any content that requires a silence or a stun, no matter what tank combination you pick, you would have access to the required utility. The fact the game really doesn't utilise this fact in raids is disappointing, but it doesn't stop the case that theoretically, they could design content with that in mind.

Going to Job specialisations, an example was tank. You can either go more defensive or more damage, with the idea that certain content would require one or the other. However I would counter and say, what about when you get more gear? Suddenly, that fight that required a more defensive kit can be more offensive. Every fight (excluding Ultimates) will get easier as you upgrade your gear through the raids. This results in less defensive play and more offensive, which means, by the end of the tier, that fight you designed to be defensive orientated is now being fought with an offensive build. But you have to also remember you have to tune the fights for the lowest ilevel set for the raid, so just putting up big numbers doesn't help.

There was mention of putting multiple esuna curing status on the main tank, then do a raid wide. Assuming the debuffs will make the tank be hit very hard by the raid wide, there is a simple solution. Tank swap, mitigate the damage and pre-plan. Since fights are scripted, you can prep with an AoE shield, then, the tank gets the debuffs, healers can esuna while the tanks mitigate the damage and depending on the debuff, the tanks can swap, AoE goes out, healers heal up. Again remembering the AoE cannot be strong enough to kill the party but at the same time, you need to have enough time to remove the worst debuffs before the AoE comes out.

Everything is a fine balancing act around tanks, healers and DPS. I would also argue that designing fights around a specific skill set reduces the customisation as you are still required to have X, Y and Z, meaning there is really no choice. I might not have articulated my points in the most comprehensible manor, things sound good in my head, but they might not translate well over text, but I hope you can see the view point I am trying to get across.

TL;DR, some amount of homogenisation is good and skill trees are again an illusion of choice, even if you design content around specific sets.

[Sqwall]

While I would agree that no two jobs should play the same, I am also of the opinion that no job should be left out of certain content just because it happens to lack some sort of utility.

And this is one of the things I wrestle with. In designing a tree/spec it's hard to balance identity with balancing the endgame. I want each class to be useful, but not turn into a exclusive endgame. While trying to move away from the only usefulness in DPS classes to solely be KILL THE THING.

Others have mentioned SMN being the best example of job identity, and I completely agree with this. Compare that with Monk and you have some large differences, as monk hasn't really evolved as much as SMN. You bring up some good points and it truly is hard to balance.

[Mikey_R]

Considering the trouble they had balancing Summoner and Scholar while they were attached to each other, I really do not see it happening at all, especially since they have said they will never do it again and the way the 2 jobs are handled now, it wouldn't surprise me if they were fully split next expansion.

What I believe most do not realise is that by adding another job to a class, that job is stuck with that classes abilities to work with. Taking your example with Gladiator. DRK would be stuck with all the Gladiator abilities, including Fight or Flight, Iron Will and Circle of Scorn. Add to this that any adjustment to any Gladiator ability would also affect both PLD and DRK. Just by changing one thing it could throw the balance out. This is essentially why SMN and SCH were so hard to balance. A change in a DoT or ruin affected both, which often made them see saw between which one was too strong. This is ultimately why the current iteration of SCH literally only takes Resurrection from Arcanist, everything else in the SCH kit is classed as a SCH ability, even if it has the same name as the SMN equivalent.

This also doesn't address the issue of different weapons for different jobs and how the animations play out. If you notice, the same ability is used the same regardless of weapon, every tank uses Interject/Low Blow/Reprisal etc. the exact same way. The same is true of Scholar and Summoner, they use spells in the same way. So, even if you go the route of, you equip a DRK Job Stone, you can use great swords, how would the animation for something like Fast Blade look when used with a great sword. It probably wouldn't look good at all. Not to mention that weapons are tied to classes and not jobs, hence Summoner and Scholar using the same weapon.

You could say, well, when you equip the DRK Job Stone, you update the animations. At this point, you might as well make a whole new job and not tie it down with the added restrictions imposed upon it by having it be tied to a class that already has another job attached to it. Bear in mind, since you used 2 tanks as an example, I used 2 tanks. The situation gets weird when you try and make a Healer/DPS or Healer/Tank. their class kit will be based mostly on healing, leaving no room for a comprehensive dps/tanking style to fit without completely reworking all the level up abilities for the class anyway.

All in all, I really do not see how it could be beneficial to have 2 jobs off of 1 class. They tried it, realised how much of a nightmare it was to balance, and have all but scrapped it since. This same logic could in theory give an insight into why skill trees are hard to balance, but that is a different challenge altogether.

And this is one of the things I wrestle with. In designing a tree/spec it's hard to balance identity with balancing the endgame. I want each class to be useful, but not turn into a exclusive endgame. While trying to move away from the only usefulness in DPS classes to solely be KILL THE THING.

Others have mentioned SMN being the best example of job identity, and I completely agree with this. Compare that with Monk and you have some large differences, as monk hasn't really evolved as much as SMN. You bring up some good points and it truly is hard to balance.

Don't worry I feel the pain with monk. It was the second job I levelled after Paladin and after Heavensward it has been a struggle to continue to use it. Which is a shame, because I enjoy the freeform combos and positionals, that's why I tried it in the first place, but with essentially no evolution through the expansions...yeah.