Leveling Kit tweaks for Tank Jobs

[DRKoftheAzure]

I think he was referring more to the fact that the extra 600mp would make edge and flood too strong for ARR content, due to the fact that not only is stalwart 160pot, but the extra edges and floods will add up along with the darkside 10% bonus.

If those people who want to keep spamming Souleater combo in AoE just to get MP back for Flood of Darkness then go for it, I'm not going to stop the people who want to do it. I'm just going to tell them that there is a better QoL option they could go for if they really want it...

[bundythenoob]

If those people who want to keep spamming Souleater combo in AoE just to get MP back for Flood of Darkness then go for it, I'm not going to stop the people who want to do it. I'm just going to tell them that there is a better QoL option they could go for if they really want it...

this is the reason why i feel that stalwart really needs to be moved to lv 40. by having it moved early, it can let people build more resource and do more damage, while making the gameplay loop of the job feel much better than just spamming unleash with the occasional flood till u can use quietus every now and then.

in ARR content, DRK is so starved of mana because the devs don't want Edge/Flood to be used more frequently that you end up having to single target while in AOE fights in order to flood, because unleash just doesn't cut it by itself. on top of that, the weaker AOE damage from not having stalwart makes DRK have to rely on souleater for HP even more until we get Abyss Drain (which should at least get an extra charge at lv 60 something sheesh)

in HW dungeons, the lack of stalwart makes the gameplay loop feel identical to ARR until you get abyssal drain, which is only usable once a minute anyway, and with Salted being so much weaker and coming twice as slow as it used to, it ends up getting very little use overall. the lack of Sole Survivor at lv 58 makes the job still feel slow at building, and at lv 60 CnS only restores 600 every minute.

STB dungeons don't get that much better until you get quietus, and even then its lack of inherit mana generation means that until delirium at 68, it just becomes a stronger unleash you can throw out every now and then.

If the devs really want to keep tank damage low, then they could just nerf the potencies on edge/flood to make up for the extra damage and resource that stalwart would bring. this would also end up changing DRKs power in HW and STB content, but it would end up being a healthy change that could allow the job to feel much more engaging and powerful

[cactuarzzzz]

I think he was referring more to the fact that the extra 600mp would make edge and flood too strong for ARR content, due to the fact that not only is stalwart 160pot, but the extra edges and floods will add up along with the darkside 10% bonus.

My thought on that was just to nerf edge/flood, or to maybe reduce darkside to 5% until level 62 or something, but I do strongly feel that stalwart should be moved to lv 40, not because it's OP, but because having to wait until lv 72 for a tool that all other tanks get at lv 40 feels terribad, especially for a job that is being used as the poster boy for SHB advertisement.

Claiming that

"If you gave DRK Stalwart Soul at lv40, you'd need to remove or heavily reduce MP generation until a later point, otherwise the AOE dps of DRK at lv40-60 would be absolutely bonkers"

is overstatement.

The other tanks main like Reinhardt_Azureheim like to assume that without stalwart soul drk aoe power and capability to do big pull is already on par with the rest of the tanks even in ARR.

Let me tell you : I did a potency calculation and found out that even with stalwart soul's mp regen drk's aoe power can only out damage GNB' aoe power at the beginning of the dungeon because mp is full which is like 2 more floods at best. Then for the rest of the dungeon DRK is on par with GNB in term of AOE power. But there is more that other tank love too and try forget to make their argument go smooth if it possible like how at the start of normal 50 dungeon PLD is the tank who came up on top because they can go LEEEEEEEEROY!>Pull the whole room>Pop Hallow Ground + Flight or Fight and burst aoe all the trash mob meanwhile DRK have to go slowly because they can't count on LD, no instant self heal, no extra physical mitigation like other tanks untill lv 70.

I level up both DRK and PLD and clear savage with both. The tanking life of the two in this expansion is like a cliff and a pit.

[bundythenoob]

Dropping a small follow up on my thoughts due to the Live Letter.

The lack of announcements for Tank (and healer) adjustments is concerning. I hope that Square is just saving this stuff to surprise us with? or else I can definitely foresee a large uproar. having gone almost an entire year since SHB dropped with almost no changes to tank jobs could definitely make people feel worse about SQ and might lose faith in them. I just hope they make even some small changes to make each of the tank jobs feel just a little better beyond being balanced at lv 80.

[Quor]

Dropping a small follow up on my thoughts due to the Live Letter.

The lack of announcements for Tank (and healer) adjustments is concerning. I hope that Square is just saving this stuff to surprise us with? or else I can definitely foresee a large uproar. having gone almost an entire year since SHB dropped with almost no changes to tank jobs could definitely make people feel worse about SQ and might lose faith in them. I just hope they make even some small changes to make each of the tank jobs feel just a little better beyond being balanced at lv 80.

Truth be told tanks and healers are pretty bottom of the list right now, minus the ever-whining SCH's anyway, who are still having trouble adjusting to not being OP after three straight versions of it.

That might sound harsh but it's the truth. SCH was way overtuned prior to ShB and was due to be brought into line.

I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of info right now; what we're seeing with the LL is both stuff that's been delayed largely due to the coronavirus as well as been in the pipeline since prior to 5.2. Any recent ideas or criticisms from prior to that won't have had a chance to be addressed due to the backlog. Although to be fair, we probably won't see any kind level shifting for job actions until 6.0 comes out, because SE has shown that they are very unlikely to make that kind of change mid-xpac.

[bundythenoob]

Truth be told tanks and healers are pretty bottom of the list right now, minus the ever-whining SCH's anyway, who are still having trouble adjusting to not being OP after three straight versions of it.

That might sound harsh but it's the truth. SCH was way overtuned prior to ShB and was due to be brought into line.

I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of info right now; what we're seeing with the LL is both stuff that's been delayed largely due to the coronavirus as well as been in the pipeline since prior to 5.2. Any recent ideas or criticisms from prior to that won't have had a chance to be addressed due to the backlog. Although to be fair, we probably won't see any kind level shifting for job actions until 6.0 comes out, because SE has shown that they are very unlikely to make that kind of change mid-xpac.

I wouldn't say that SCH deserved to remain at the top, but their criticisms are much valid in my opinion. DPS neutering aside, they broke the fairies, selene is outright deleted, and the jobs older healing potencies were not buffed to compensate for their loss of mitigation via dps just to name a few problems. it has glaring mana issues from lv 30 to 45 because of the removal of aetherflow, but adloquium still costs 1k mana, and without lustrate till lv 45 (or energy drain for that matter) you go through your resources way too fast.

My bigger worry however, is that in their chase for "balance and accessibility", square will be too busy catering to the wrong crowd to realise that their core audience no longer wants to play said jobs, and with the core audience gone, the overall skill level of the playerbase will be reduced to cure1 bots and tanks who dont use mitigation

[cactuarzzzz]

Dropping a small follow up on my thoughts due to the Live Letter.

The lack of announcements for Tank (and healer) adjustments is concerning. I hope that Square is just saving this stuff to surprise us with? or else I can definitely foresee a large uproar. having gone almost an entire year since SHB dropped with almost no changes to tank jobs could definitely make people feel worse about SQ and might lose faith in them. I just hope they make even some small changes to make each of the tank jobs feel just a little better beyond being balanced at lv 80.

The translation in discord says WAR will get adjustment to make it easier to keep Storm's Eye buff. Nothing about DRK tho.

[Brandedblade]

From what i understand of warrior, the biggest thing i wish it had was beast gauge generation the moment you learned it's AoE combo, even if it's at a lower rate of generation and then upgraded to the current value at level 74. Not being able to steel cyclone or decimate pre-74 without popping cooldowns feels really bad tbh.

[bundythenoob]

From what i understand of warrior, the biggest thing i wish it had was beast gauge generation the moment you learned it's AoE combo, even if it's at a lower rate of generation and then upgraded to the current value at level 74. Not being able to steel cyclone or decimate pre-74 without popping cooldowns feels really bad tbh.

Would this also fix the problem of WAR's gap closer? I have a friend that says he doesn't like how it feels like it eats into his DPS just to move between packs. not too sure since I don't play WAR (I'm more a greatsword than greataxe type of player)

[Quor]

Would this also fix the problem of WAR's gap closer? I have a friend that says he doesn't like how it feels like it eats into his DPS just to move between packs. not too sure since I don't play WAR (I'm more a greatsword than greataxe type of player)

Onslaught is a strange beast. It's technically dps neutral for it's cost, with the benefit of the lowest CD of the gap closers on tanks, as well as the longest range. The issue is you lose out on potential better damage, as it's only a gain if you're making up for a lost GCD via the gap closer OR if it's used under IR.

This is in contrast to PLD and GNB, which want to stuff their gap closers into their dps window. DRK is a bit of a middle ground, as they only want to dump their charges under raid buffs, but otherwise are free to keep a charge in the tank as needed. Onslaught is perfectly fine where it is imo, because it's great for utility and ok for damage under the right circumstances. If you remove the cost then it just becomes free damage used on CD, and if you buff it then it just becomes something you use on CD. As it stands now, it's actually a decision that needs to be made instead of something you use as soon as it's available.