Invulns: Problems and Solutions

[Lucy_Pyre]

Non-issue. Invulns are completely fine as is. Thread is just a thinly veiled "I hate LD so every other tank should lose their special button too" thread.

[ItMe]

I think it'd be easier if they just added something you'd need an invuln for. That way you don't have it available for whatever mechanic you wanna cheese.

[Ultimatecalibur]

The invulns are not the problem; the fight design is.

If a mechanic that can be cheesed by invulns only comes up once every 210 seconds or more every single tank comp can cheese it with their 2 invulns. Those types of mechanics need to appear more often than once every 120 seconds for tank invuln cheese not to be a viable tactic.

[Lyth]

..

Sure, you can make tankbusters happen more frequently. My point here moreso is that if invulns were on a personal LB gauge, then fights could be designed such that your invuln only shows up when the fight designer wants you to have access to it, much like the group LB works.

...

I think the point here is that if invulns were less accessible, the rest of your defensive kit would matter a whole lot more. So you'd have to actually ration your defensive cooldown use to survive.

[Kabooa]

There is no short way to go about this, but I'll give it a shot.

The primary reason we divide up into archetypes / roles / 'classes' is so that we divide up responsibility, particularly into packages that complement each other and focus on a particular area of the game.

It is about creating packages that provide an individual the most interaction in what they find fun and the least amount of interaction in what they don't.

This means that anything that is put into the package that actively takes away from the rest is a problem. I don't think that's controversial.

However, deciding what each "Package" consists of is where there will be disagreements.

Edit: Turns out there is a really short way to go about it.

Replace them with Super-States, in which the Super States are temporary phases of high durability with an offensive pay off. More interactive and it satisfies "DaMaGe Is KiNg".

That was way easier than writing an essay.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Sure, you can make tankbusters happen more frequently. My point here moreso is that if invulns were on a personal LB gauge, then fights could be designed such that your invuln only shows up when the fight designer wants you to have access to it, much like the group LB works.

At that point Invulns might as well not exist or exist only as a duty action.

I think the point here is that if invulns were less accessible, the rest of your defensive kit would matter a whole lot more. So you'd have to actually ration your defensive cooldown use to survive.

Right now every tank has more than enough cooldowns to handle a 110% max hp tank buster every 25 sec or a 150% max hp tank buster roughly every 60 secs even without the invulns thanks to their 25s cooldown (Sheltron/HoS/TBN/Raw Intuition), 90s Rampart and 120s 30% (Sentinel, Vengeance, Shadow Wall and Nebula).

Limiting the Invulns wouldn't change this.

The Invulns get problematic when they get used instead of the other defensive cooldowns so that other mechanics can be ignored. Invulns get used to negate the need for a tank swap, tether swap or stack on the tank mechanic. Those are the mechanics that need to come more than every 2 minutes not just simple tank busters.

[Nefimmyr]

Doesn't PLD already have to do that as it lacks personal cooldowns out of the 4 tanks? As well as the other tanks to some degree. So that notion seems unnecessary, especially since they've removed a lot of mitigation skills from Stormblood and previous xpacs so tanks universally have fewer to each job they already ration out. Each "spammy" mitigation they do have even comes with a downside or limitation inherently: Sheltron uses Oath gauge, limiting you to 2 in a row at a time; Heart of Stone is the weakest as far as protection; The Blackest Night costs 3000 mp, which you only can pull of 3 ideally before bottoming out your MP (capped at 10000); and is a WAR uses Raw Intuition, it costs a usage of Nascent Flash and to use Nascent Flash costs a usage of Raw Intuition.

[Absurdity]

Doesn't PLD already have to do that as it lacks personal cooldowns out of the 4 tanks? As well as the other tanks to some degree. So that notion seems unnecessary, especially since they've removed a lot of mitigation skills from Stormblood and previous xpacs so tanks universally have fewer to each job they already ration out. Each "spammy" mitigation they do have even comes with a downside or limitation inherently: Sheltron uses Oath gauge, limiting you to 2 in a row at a time; Heart of Stone is the weakest as far as protection; The Blackest Night costs 3000 mp, which you only can pull of 3 ideally before bottoming out your MP (capped at 10000); and is a WAR uses Raw Intuition, it costs a usage of Nascent Flash and to use Nascent Flash costs a usage of Raw Intuition.

Tank cooldowns are actually more abundant due to the relatively low tank damage and the very spread out tank busters. You pretty much always have your 30% or 20% ready for each tankbuster and your short, fast recast mitigation like Raw. So you don't really "need" invulns for a fight, it often just frees up mitigation for fluff damage.

[Lyth]

...

Thinly veiled attempt to derail thread. Also irrelevant to points made.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Thinly veiled attempt to derail thread. Also irrelevant to points made.

It's actually entirely relevant; thus the "invulns are fine" bit. Because, well, invulns are completely fine. They're actually one of the things that most differentiates tanks in this game from a lot of other MMOs, because in all the MMOs I've played over the years I've almost never seen a "I can't die" button on tanks in others.