Invulns: Problems and Solutions

[Ultimatecalibur]

That said, I think invulns are fine. I would be much more interested in gameplay that was designed around "TANKING" rotations. As in, the damage coming in was not survivable on a constant basis without proper play, not JUST the occasional tank buster.

Funnily enough the ARR and HW EX and Savage fights were mostly built that way. Tank swaps occurred more often than not because the tank ran out of mitigation cooldowns and would not be able to survive until they came off cooldown. The one flaw of this design was that once geared well enough (i.e. having 20% to 30% more hp than entry level) a lot of that content could be solo tanked.

[DWolfwood]

Funnily enough the ARR and HW EX and Savage fights were mostly built that way. Tank swaps occurred more often than not because the tank ran out of mitigation cooldowns and would not be able to survive until they came off cooldown. The one flaw of this design was that once geared well enough (i.e. having 20% to 30% more hp than entry level) a lot of that content could be solo tanked.

Yeah, no. I did all the endgame content at release in ARR and HW (all before nerfs etc.)

And none of it came close to actual tanking rotations.

If you're interested in what I mean, you should check out FFXI sometime. Just like XIV, you don't see the combat come together until level cap, and that game doesn't have a GCD. Instead, at higher levels, with haste etc, you'll be pressing OGCDs nonstop and tanks have to constantly be juggling their tank CDs and tank spells to survive.

[Absurdity]

Instead, at higher levels, with haste etc, you'll be pressing OGCDs nonstop and tanks have to constantly be juggling their tank CDs and tank spells to survive.

That can quickly turn the gameplay into a chore as well. Take ESO for example, you're constantly spamming abilties, like every 0.5 seconds constantly, either to keep up several buffs with different timers, several dots with different timers, spamming spells or magicka/stamina regen abilities all while spamming light or heavy attack at the same time. This might be more engaging than XIV for a while but you quickly get into handcramps territory and doesn't exactly require many braincells either because everything has such a low or non-existent cooldown.

[EliciaVenom]

I think the invulns existing as they are, is not a problem at all.

My reasoning:
In dungeons tanks should already be using their CDs on a rotation of sorts to help mitigate damage when you do large pulls, I do not see a problem with the current timers as I have been able to do this on every tank effectively. The only thing that's nice is Invulns give us the opportunity of a panic button or to make taking that damage more interesting, PLDs have the best one without taking any damage, the GNB's health goes to 1 but is invincible for 8s so plenty of time to heal up, and WAR and DRK can be avoided or useful to help situations - this is not meant to cheese anything but can spice up the gameplay a little bit.

When it comes to the ShB savage raiding and the recent designs they have done to them, as a tank, I do learn the proper way to do all the fights, it is entirely possible to mitigate or tank switch when appropriate - the point of the invulns in these fights is not for "cheesing" to avoid learning a mechanic, but to either make very complex parts easier or in the case of something got messed up, to save a run in the savage fight instead of having to rerun the fight over again. I think SE has done a great job in their fight design in introducing more difficulty for all roles, more responsibility of each role for the entire fight itself, while making it entirely possible for those interested in getting into savage content to learn and grow.

If the savage fights are considered too easy or simple for people, that's why the Ultimate Fights Exist. The invulns do not need to be removed or completely reworked when they are put there as part of the toolkit, finding inventive ways to use them IS part of the fun in my opinion. As a DRK main, I don't want to use my invuln to make it more difficult on my healers unless we have an understanding that - yes this will work - it was never meant to be a cheese other than making it easier overall for my party or healers or even my co-tank.

As for the CDs in savage content, in E5s I pretty much use them on rotation for the TBs of the main boss, but my OT does help when possible and I help my OT when possible. In E6s, other than conflag, i'm mostly free to use them as I take hits and cover my co-tank when they get the TB which makes it so I don't have to plan as much but the fight itself has more variety in its mechanics. E7s I do find to be the easiest of the latest tier. E8s everyone has responsibility, just different responsibilities, there is a needed tank swap - do some people cheese through it with their invulns? Possibly, but not all can, I am using my raid wide CDs strategically as well as making sure I use my personal ones at different points of the fight. Can these fights be done just using the CDs where absolutely needed? Sure, these fights were designed so a particular skill range can still conceivably clear content when put together and not just for the elite of elites.

[Lyth]

There's nothing wrong with the concept. The problem is their availability. The recasts themselves look fine, until you remember that you have two tanks. Your team has an invuln available every 2-3.5 minutes. When they're so available that you can mitigate every tankbuster with invulns alone, then there's a problem. When they're so available that you can use them to cheese other mechanics, then there's a problem.

What makes conventional cooldowns different is that you have to actually know how much damage the tankbuster does. Can I get away with just Rampart, or do I need a 30% cooldown? Do I use one big cooldown, or stack two? If every tankbuster does the same amount of damage, then you don't really have to think about any of this. But if the damage on each progressive tankbuster ramps up, suddenly we have to ask ourselves how best to ration out our cooldowns. That's usually where invulns start to have meaning.

[Vyrerus]

You know, this thread catching my eye again reminded me of a clip I took from Exdeath prog a few years back where I used all of DRK's mitigation to live through the second Thunder IIIx2 cause my co-tank was having a bad night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4scv0cEJ-w

Of course, healer shields were in play too, as well as Addle, but it felt pretty epic.

[Lyth]

It feels like invulns have become a progressively more focal part of mitigation strategy with each expansion. I'm not sure if that's because there's less to mitigate, or because we're more inclined to swap.

[Hierro]

You know what I like about the current tier? Tank busters aren't the only thing that use cooldowns. First phase of E8S, for example, is an awesome instance of where using your ramparts and 30%s are encouraged for auto attacks because they hit pretty hard. You -could- forgo using them, and you wouldn't die per se, but mitigating them is much appreciated and does have rewards for rDPS. You could also look at the add phase of E7S for another such instance.

Point is, invulns becoming the de-facto solution to tankbusters doesn't have to be a bad thing if you look at the context of a fight. Now, a fight like E6S, on the other hand, yeah that is very much so lacking in damage both in terms of autos and tank busters, but w/e, you can't have it all especially for a lower tier fight.

[Absurdity]

Now, a fight like E6S, on the other hand, yeah that is very much so lacking in damage both in terms of autos and tank busters, but w/e, you can't have it all especially for a lower tier fight.

E6S is just a crap fight in general, invulns are the least of it's problems.

[DaulBan]

The only problem with invulns is the fact that LD is so bad it could be on a one minute CD and still be garbage