Invulns: Problems and Solutions

[Lucy_Pyre]

Thinly veiled attempt to derail thread. Also irrelevant to points made.

It's actually entirely relevant; thus the "invulns are fine" bit. Because, well, invulns are completely fine. They're actually one of the things that most differentiates tanks in this game from a lot of other MMOs, because in all the MMOs I've played over the years I've almost never seen a "I can't die" button on tanks in others.

[Absurdity]

It's actually entirely relevant; thus the "invulns are fine" bit. Because, well, invulns are completely fine. They're actually one of the things that most differentiates tanks in this game from a lot of other MMOs, because in all the MMOs I've played over the years I've almost never seen a "I can't die" button on tanks in others.

Easiest example for an "I can't die button" would probably WoW's Divine Shield but yes. I certainly don't want it to be on a gauge so that the devs decide when I get to use my cooldowns, it only takes decision making away from the tank and says "you use your abilities the way we want you to, when we want you to"...no thanks to that.

[DWolfwood]

It's actually entirely relevant; thus the "invulns are fine" bit. Because, well, invulns are completely fine. They're actually one of the things that most differentiates tanks in this game from a lot of other MMOs, because in all the MMOs I've played over the years I've almost never seen a "I can't die" button on tanks in others.

You should try XI, where they do differentiation much better. Invulns came from there, where they were referred to as "1-hr" CDs before they got buffed to be 30min CDs.

[Vyrerus]

You should try XI, where they do differentiation much better. Invulns came from there, where they were referred to as "1-hr" CDs before they got buffed to be 30min CDs.

They were originally 2hr abilities. And they weren't even all true invulnerability. Invincible didn't block magic. Perfect Dodge didnt' dodge magic. No idea about now though, with all the stuff you can get from Job Master skill tree enhancement.

My favorites were always Chainspell and Mighty Strikes. Chainspell was almost true invulnerability if you used it to cast defensive spells. Mighty Strikes went under the radar for a long time cause people didn't believe that it affected weaponskills, which I never understood, because it was easily observable firsthand heh.

[Quintessa]

Non-issue. Invulns are completely fine as is. Thread is just a thinly veiled "I hate Superbolide so every other tank should lose their special button too" thread.

Because I'm tired of hearing complaints about it.

[BarretOblivion]

Invluns aren't an issue. They have shown they can make tankbusters that can go through tankbusters. In all honesty you kinda need invulns in some fights because you would run out of cooldowns at low ilevel. The fights are the issue by design ingorning the tank roll basically as a whole except for throwing in a tankbuster or tank swap here or there.

[Lyth]

Some of the most frequently used defensive abilities that tanks use are on gauges (i.e. Sheltron, TBN). The devs don't decide when you use those abilities, but they are gated by your rate of resource generation. Similarly, you aren't always forced to use LB at the instant that you generate enough gauge. You can hold it until you need it.

Edit: Turns out there is a really short way to go about it.

Replace them with Super-States, in which the Super States are temporary phases of high durability with an offensive pay off. More interactive and it satisfies "DaMaGe Is KiNg"..

This is essentially the point that I was making. When I wrote the post originally, I was a bit worried about incorporating an offensive element to it, but now that I think about it, that was one of the points that made earlier variants of WAR fun. Do you use your 'personal LB' at the instant that you get it for a big damage boost, do you use it at that dps check that you're stuck at, or do you hold it for a bit longer to negate a tankbuster or other mechanic while putting out high damage?

The Invulns get problematic when they get used instead of the other defensive cooldowns so that other mechanics can be ignored. Invulns get used to negate the need for a tank swap, tether swap or stack on the tank mechanic. Those are the mechanics that need to come more than every 2 minutes not just simple tank busters.

There's no problem with having plenty of defensive abilities. But you should be forced to rotate through them, such that resource management becomes an issue. Right now, it just feels like you spend most of your time rotating through invulns.

Mechanics cheese is always going to be an issue, unless the mechanic ignores the invuln. Even if it shows up every minute, you're still going to cheese that one instance where it's most beneficial for your team's uptime. Switching it to a gauge makes it a bit less predictable than "I'm going to use it at this timestamp to cheese a mechanic, and it'll be back up to remove a tankbuster at a later timestamp."

[Kabooa]

his is essentially the point that I was making. When I wrote the post originally, I was a bit worried about incorporating an offensive element to it, but now that I think about it, that was one of the points that made earlier variants of WAR fun. Do you use your 'personal LB' at the instant that you get it for a big damage boost, do you use it at that dps check that you're stuck at, or do you hold it for a bit longer to negate a tankbuster or other mechanic while putting out high damage?

I would imagine them being abilities with multiple charges that refresh under the following conditions.

1) Out of Combat - A low cooldown. 2-3 minutes while not engaged in battle.
2) Standard Wipe refresh.
3) Reintroduce Execution Style abilities, and reward kill-shots.

By removing them from standard cooldown design, we remove the need to use them ASAP to get the timer running. It is in this manner that we can allow them to be both potent defensive options that also bring some high offense capability. You put them in the fight as you need them - Reactionary use, bridging the gap between other cooldowns, or more liberal use if the fight allows for it.

While I'm not against the idea of duty-specific use of special abilities, the duty actions fill that niche already, I agree that players should decide when its used, but a non-standard cooldown set up should give the same result while not restricting use. The return of Execution style abilities, markedly improved from their prior iterations I would add, should go some distance in giving multi-enemy encounters some more to focus on instead of blind aoe cleaving.

[Lyth]

There aren't really any restrictions to when you use a team LB, either. You just need to have enough gauge. It just so happens that it's usually up when the fight needs to have it up.

There's actually not that much difference between a gauge or a timer. PLD still has Sheltron up at fairly predictable intervals. With longer gauges, however, you introduce more possibility for variation, depending on fight-specific factors (uptime, damage mitigated, etc.) So it becomes less a matter of creating a timestamp list of boss actions and planning out swaps and cooldowns on a spreadsheet, and more about adapting on the fly while rationing out your regular cooldowns in-between invuln uses with good team communication.

Killshots are an interesting idea for dps players. Granted, not every fight has much in the way of adds.

For tanks, could you not just reward players for mitigating damage on themselves or a co-tank with their short recast cooldowns with more gauge? That way, the goal would be to try to build up gauge faster by intelligent use of single target mitigation tools.

[Kabooa]

For tanks, could you not just reward players for mitigating damage on themselves or a co-tank with their short recast cooldowns with more gauge? That way, the goal would be to try to build up gauge faster by intelligent use of single target mitigation tools.

As a concept, I don't see a problem with it, but more specifics would be nice.