The tawdry female bosses are tiresome, and we could do with more male fanservice.

[craybest]

I can't believe someone actually use mortal Kombat as an argument to show that now they make females in videogames to be not attractive.
Dude, most of them used to look like actual strippers. Kitana, Milena, jade, Sonya, all of them had skimpy revealing sexualized outfits.
Did the males look like male strippers? No. where they using those skimpy sexualized clothing? No. At most sole of them are shirtless, something considered pretty standard.
That's why they changed the females clothes, because the females looked like strippers. And because the game takes itself and its own lore and story more serious now, and it's just weird to have a relatively serious story and lore while all your female characters look like strippers.

[Kobalos]

Yeah I know what you mean most female bosses in FFXIV are sexy ladies in skimpy clothing whilst most male bosses are huge hulking beast-like monsters so when I saw the new boss in the trailer I was like 'eh' it's a tad overdone at this point. Most of the gaming community is still made up of hetro dudes though so of course they will appeal to their main demographic so I doubt we will ever have a Magic Mike type boss.

[Kobalos]

Also how the heck did the convo turn from 'More male fan service pls' to 'Abortion bad' ??? :/

[Doozer]

Also how the heck did the convo turn from 'More male fan service pls' to 'Abortion bad' ??? :/

That's usually what happens after a thread passes the 20 page mark or so. It's funny to see a thread topic and then go straight to the most recent page. A thread can be about wanting more inventory space and then 32 pages later the last post is "so you condone slavery? Huh?"

People want to keep the argument going no matter what it's about. That's why most of them come here.

[Goji1639]

This is a statistically distorted myth that's carried on and on by mainstream media. The only reason women working in the exact same jobs as men earn less is because they take more time off for maternity leave, health breaks, and all other similar things.

Also Conservatives have open minds to reasonable arguments. Most people do, regardless of socio-political stance.

It's not a myth necessarily; it's just that the conclusions people draw from these studies are incorrect.

Pay discrimination by gender is illegal; any job that pays a set wage has the same set wage for both women and men.

For jobs that aren't set wage your pay is a negotiation. I'm a system/data analyst, and nobody where I've worked, or at any other place, makes the exact same money as I do for doing the same job. So many factors come into play when determining what you make that doing a 1:1 comparison of different people who work the same job is pointless; OF COURSE the results will show a disparity.

None of this means women are discriminated against. It probably just means that women don't fight as hard as men do when negotiating their pay.

[Lauront]

With the way it's presented in the media, it is as good as a myth, because as with many, many other things, they fail to apply relevant controls (such as those which you both mentioned) in order to derive the correct inferences. What is alarming is how many otherwise "respectable" institutions - e.g. big firms - just run with this nonsense and promise to "remedy" it, when they should (and probably do) know better. I guess it makes for good PR.

[Melichoir]

I think that this is what some in this thread are asking for, but I don't think that it's what people on Twitter which the OP linked to are asking for. And as I stated above, in general people spend way more time complaining about female characters showing skin than they do actually asking for more male skin being shown and such. I think that in general a lot of game developers are afraid of upsetting their male audience many of which are very insecure and homophobia isn't really that uncommon.

Im incredibly inclined to completely ignore any further points simply because Im personally tired of the "Well, they dont do it cause males so insecure about homosexuality." It's a tired, age old argument that uses tropes against male players to explain design differences. It is no different than dismissing female players as 'posers' - a generalization used to discredit a portion of the player base based on sex. This concept is bandied about like were still living like 30-40 years ago where its like "Dude, Bro, That guy is totally gay! He must be a -insert slur here-! Now lets go have tons of hotness with females cause were so manly".

Hell that has becoming the running joke - the hyper masculine jock is actually secretly gay and ashamed of themselves.

Most guys dont give an 'f' anymore. Some do, sure and that is unfortunate to say it lightly, but most dont. And if youve been around the internet enough (which I would guess is a yes), you shouldve quickly learned that when trashier people want to really get under your skin, the first thing theyll do is look for something that you take on a personal level and use it against you.

So instead of adding more male characters like that they just erase it with the female characters to avoid having to strive more for equal options for everyone. The mentality in the West especially is basically '' either only the female characters can be sexy or no one can '' ( in general ). Even sexy male characters in most Western games in particular are still designed to appeal to the stereotypical '' CoD dudebro '', they're still very '' hyper masculine '' super ultra muscular in a way that I think mostly appeals to men. In FFXIV and Japanese games in general tho a bit more femininity seems to be generally accepted, I don't think that anyone would complain if we got more of it in FFXIV.

I speculate that when this does occur, its because there has been a ton of pressure on the gaming industry to downplay female sexuality under concepts like 'the male gaze' and that eye candy is purely demeaning to women over "Lets not have as many sexy hot men". Now, if we want to discuss it fairly, yes, some stuff is explicitly done for the simple sake of "I like sexy", which is fine. Not all art has to be politically correct. Sometimes liking things for the simple sake of visual appeal is alright. Youre not a monster if you like looking at sexually attractive characters from time to time. That's something that I think gets lost in the discussion.

Then we have to start discussing actually what people like. Gonna be blunt and frank - I do art commission work from time to time, and of that, some of it is adult related. Let me tell you, people have a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide variety of tastes. What some men and women like or think as attractive or pleasing is not the same for others. There are women I have encountered who like the elegant and delicate male look, but as many men who much more prefer the more burly looking man. Conversely, there are women who also like that burly brawny man look and hate the effeminate man who looks like theyll snap in half like a twig.

It's all down to preferences and tastes of the individual. So it is a moot point to state "Well we need more men like Omega M, and less like Titan (Eden, not the chicken nugget)" because even if you were to add in those, you are disregarding players who have preferences different than you. And it all comes back to eye candy, no matter how you cut it. The OP isnt pointing out 'Tawdry' female characters in the game in general, theyre pointing specifically to bosses - bosses which wont generally have fleshed personalities.

So lets do it this way. You want burly men, you get burly men. You want slim elegent men? Lets throw those in too. Lets throw in small brickhouses of men and tall drinks of water. I dont care, and I dont think most players would, no matter their background. The goal is, no matter how you cut it, people want to look at sexy things and want more of it tailored to their tastes. Which is fine. Something for everyone broadly.

What I will take umbrage with is people who are like "To many of these female bosses are too scantily clad" but turn around and be like "We need more guy candy". That nonsense bothers me to no end. You want guy candy then you need to be fine with the ladies too, and vice versa. It's either we give it to everyone and say a job well done, or we do it for no one.

[PondHollow]

What I will take umbrage with is people who are like "To many of these female bosses are too scantily clad" but turn around and be like "We need more guy candy". That nonsense bothers me to no end. You want guy candy then you need to be fine with the ladies too, and vice versa. It's either we give it to everyone and say a job well done, or we do it for no one.

This is a failure of logic or a far-fetched interpretation if you're talking about my OP; regardless, by its presence in this thread it is so misleading it merits a response.

I didn't suggest eliminating the scantily clad women, and I didn't suggest male fanservice to be as extreme and pornographic as what we already have in the game. I use the word obscene in particular because it is generally just that, subjective as it may be. Many of the bosses we have are not so much 'scantily clad' as they are 'normally considered extreme or unfit for public display.' We can easily introduce a bunch of strippers, male and female, and yet by doing so tone down the licentiousness of the average such humanoid depiction because of what is already present.

I'm all for a variety of things, and not particularly keen on humanoids or lascivious gimmickry in the first place. But what we have is both wildly lopsided and at times seriously concerning.

[Melichoir]

This is a failure of logic or a far-fetched interpretation if you're talking about my OP; regardless, by its presence in this thread it is so misleading it merits a response.

I didn't suggest eliminating the scantily clad women, and I didn't suggest male fanservice to be as extreme and pornographic as what we already have in the game. I use the word obscene in particular because it is generally just that, subjective as it may be. Many of the bosses we have are not so much 'scantily clad' as they are 'normally considered extreme or unfit for public display.' We can easily introduce a bunch of strippers, male and female, and yet by doing so tone down the licentiousness of the average such humanoid depiction because of what is already present.

I'm all for a variety of things, and not particularly keen on humanoids or lascivious gimmickry in the first place. But what we have is both wildly lopsided and at times seriously concerning.

Spin it out how you must - more classy guys, more sexy guys, more whatever. Whatever floats your boat, that is fine. It is eye candy no matter how you cut it. Just different flavors of it.

Keep in mind your whole opening post is a juxtaposition between "obscene and tawdry" female bosses, linking to a twitter post as what you mean by it, then give Godbert - a fit & conventionally handsome man who spends most of his time in his skippies, as being desirable and need more of. What exactly do you think your comparison implies you are looking to have more represented?

The issue is you are misunderstanding my overall point - eye candy for everyone is perfectly fine. What shape it takes is irrelevant. Lets just throw it out there and let people sort it out. I however will take umbrage with people who will state things about objectification and how its bad, but change their tune the second its ok to show off the male form in similar show. Either we're cool with it all on equal footing or no one should get it, no matter the form it takes.

[craybest]

Part of the issue is having eyecandy ONLY for straight men.