Is it time to remove dots from the game?

[ItMe]

They removed them for a very good reason: During HW (and even as early as ARR) the shear number of DoTs and debuffs applied at one time by characters participating in 24-man Raids, A-rank/S-rank hunts, and Daidem often exceeded the maximum number of visible debuffs and occasionally exceeded the maximum number of appliable debuffs on a target. Players could not tell if their DoTs/Debuff were up which caused sever losses in dps.

So the great DoT purge of Stormblood had a very good reason behind it.

I think there was also the matter of the same number of debuffs crowing out the bosses' own buffs, like say, Cloud of Darkness' invincibility.

Course I might be misremebering it as said invincibility, IIRC took the form of Stoneskin buffs and like meant there was a damage threshold that must be exceeded before the cloud can be damaged.

Umm...
You know that you can go into the settings and TURN OFF other players dots and debuffs, right?
You can set it to only display yours and the enemys.

[Ilenya]

Umm...
You know that you can go into the settings and TURN OFF other players dots and debuffs, right?
You can set it to only display yours and the enemys.

That doesn't actually prevent the issue with the debuff cap FYI.

[Ultimatecalibur]

That's an issue with UI design not class design.

It was a UI compromise that was only a problem due to class design. A limit of 48 visible debuffs isn't a problem when each player can only apply 1 or 2 stacking debuffs/dots. It becomes a problem when each class applies 3 or more.

Umm...
You know that you can go into the settings and TURN OFF other players dots and debuffs, right?
You can set it to only display yours and the enemys.

That didn't actually do anything (as that option is a client side culling) when the server was not sending you the info on your debuffs/dots. The server only sent out the info on about 48 buffs/debuffs/dots per target (to save on memory use/packet size) while only tracking up to about 100.

[Roda]

It was a UI compromise that was only a problem due to class design. A limit of 48 visible debuffs isn't a problem when each player can only apply 1 or 2 stacking debuffs/dots. It becomes a problem when each class applies 3 or more.

And the solution to that should be to give a clientside priority to show your dots before even trying to show the rest of the raid's. User's dots = Boss's buffs > trick attack = chain strategium = feint = addle = slow = blind = bind = stun = paralysis > other player's dots. The fact that the game puts every status effect into a bucket and just splashes whatever gets applied first onto those two rows is definitely a ui issue.

[Ultimatecalibur]

And the solution to that should be to give a clientside priority to show your dots before even trying to show the rest of the raid's. User's dots = Boss's buffs > trick attack = chain strategium = feint = addle = slow = blind = bind = stun = paralysis > other player's dots. The fact that the game puts every status effect into a bucket and just splashes whatever gets applied first onto those two rows is definitely a ui issue.

The UI pretty much does that as the client parses your debuff/dots and the target's buffs/debuffs to take priority to visualize. The client can not display any info that it doesn't receive. The problem was that the server wasn't and doesn't send the full list of all buffs/debuffs/dots if it exceeds a certain limit. The server only sends you something like the first 48 buffs/debuffs/dots on the target even when it actually has 49+ buffs/debuffs/dots on it. If your debuff/dot ends up in position 49+ on the list no one is seeing it.

[Roda]

The UI pretty much does that as the client parses your debuff/dots and the target's buffs/debuffs to take priority to visualize. The client can not display any info that it doesn't receive. The problem was that the server wasn't and doesn't send the full list of all buffs/debuffs/dots if it exceeds a certain limit. The server only sends you something like the first 48 buffs/debuffs/dots on the target even when it actually has 49+ buffs/debuffs/dots on it. If your debuff/dot ends up in position 49+ on the list no one is seeing it.

Idk how to tell you this, but how the UI interacts with the server is still a UI issue.

It's a lot less likely to happen, to be fair. I only ran into it recently because I happened to catch a hunt train and tried to DoT the hunt. For most jobs it's a non-issue, but I feel bad for any SMN/BRD that gets caught in that.

I know my timers well enough so that it doesn't affect me too badly.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Idk how to tell you this, but how the UI interacts with the server is still a UI issue.

No, it isn't. This is a case of data transfer and data storage issues which require very different considerations and solutions. The UI is for the most part doing everything correctly, but is not getting all the data that needs to be displayed. If the server was sending the full list of buffs/debuffs/dots the client could potentially parse and cull them down to primarily display the applicable ones, but the server is not.

I know my timers well enough so that it doesn't affect me too badly.

Would you be doing alright if the total debuff limit regularly caused only 1 (if any) of your DoTs to be applied at all? Knowing your timers is meaningless if your casts are not actually applying them.

[Mhaeric]

No, it isn't. This is a case of data transfer and data storage issues which require very different considerations and solutions. The UI is for the most part doing everything correctly, but is not getting all the data that needs to be displayed. If the server was sending the full list of buffs/debuffs/dots the client could potentially parse and cull them down to primarily display the applicable ones, but the server is not.



Would you be doing alright if the total debuff limit regularly caused only 1 (if any) of your DoTs to be applied at all? Knowing your timers is meaningless if your casts are not actually applying them.

This. I'll also add that you if your buff didn't appear you actually had no clue whether your cast was indeed applied but just not being one of the 48 displayed, or if it had not been applied at all because it exceeded the 100 status limit. That is definitely not a UI-only issue. Playing SMN on boss fates back in 2.0 was a crapshoot whether or not you actually did any DoT damage or not.

[Roda]

No, it isn't. This is a case of data transfer and data storage issues which require very different considerations and solutions. The UI is for the most part doing everything correctly, but is not getting all the data that needs to be displayed. If the server was sending the full list of buffs/debuffs/dots the client could potentially parse and cull them down to primarily display the applicable ones, but the server is not.

K, so not a class design issue? Which is what you were calling it before?
'Cause that's what I'm saying. My thing is it's how the dots are displayed is the issue, not that classes are bad because they have dots.
I think we're looking at this from opposite ends. My perspective is: server -(causing issues with)-> UI display, not dot classes being present -(being bad for)-> other dot classes

Would you be doing alright if the total debuff limit regularly caused only 1 (if any) of your DoTs to be applied at all? Knowing your timers is meaningless if your casts are not actually applying them.

God, I haven't had that issue in a long while (I think it's been since ARR Odin), but since I've always had skills that are dependant on dots being applied, I could always tell when they were on (aka, festers hitting for the right amount, thundercloud procs, etc). It's not ideal, but in content with that many people ya rarely have to be 100% optimal. But seriously, what content are you doing right now to have ~50 BRDs or SMNs in one place? I don't think I've seen even eureka get that populated. ._.