Shared Classes Are Not Failures (ie SCH/SMN)

[Daniolaut]

Yes, you nailed exactly what I’m trying to say.

I know Geomancer is a highly requested Job. And exsists in Yanxian lore where earth, wind, and water can form barriers.

Some people even express that White Mage has gone too far away from its Conjurer “roots” as a nature mage.

Geomancer is explicitly a nature mage, and would make total sense to branch off Conjurer.

It’s elementary really. It’s knocking out like 3 birds with 1 stone-

-It revives the obsolete class system
-It streamlines arbitrary unlocked level gates
-It grants more casual players flexibility in what to play, especially in late game raiding

Because, bringing logic to the forums is apparently taboo.

Its much more popular to be rude, say pointless things, and just post an insulting meme or type no /10char.

Oh.. and saying something off topic. Thats a huge "like" magnet. If someone can say nothing at all, or derail the thread, thats like magic.

I have no idea why.


Again, I used my brain, and saw exactly what you were trying to say. You linked every expansion job to a base job. Anyone with half a brain would have caught on. It had nothing to do with trying to level 2 jobs at once.

Which honestly with the changes to crafting and gathering I dont get how people can get upset with someone even suggesting that. Which you werent even doing that anyway. I mean seriously. You linked only expansion jobs to base classes, then said they would share Exp. nothing else. I took not even 3 seconds to realize each of those jobs dont start at level 1, and thought about how they start at random levels, and was like "this is actually logical 100%."

Then I read a few of the responses, and how people said you were full of nonsense, and I was like... yup, typical FFXIV forum responses. You made absolute sense, and cleaned up the game without changing a SINGLE thing lore, or system wise. You just breathed some sense into it. You actually made more sense in the game, and people said it was ridiculous. Like I wish I could say I was surprised , but I'm not.

[AceofRains]

Ya know it’s sad that it’s like that. I have tons of ideas that I just write down on my phone, and I haven’t voiced them in years here because there always this crowd of naysayers that derail the thread before I can generate a discussion. And it’s not like there’s ever really a dev response where they say “oh that’s something we’re considering too.” It’s always the silent surprises with this dev team and they really need to cut that shit, because player input is what saved this game from oblivion. I have plans to update my Big Blue Feedback Thread, and I’ve also got a really hot concept for a Summoner rework that doesn’t compromise what Summoner is. I try to read what people are wanting out of this game and respond accordingly. It’s really not about me alone, ya know?

[AceofRains]

What’s even worse about Dark Knight, Machinist, and Astrologian being unlocked at level 30, is that they are gated behind Heavensward, while Red Mage, Samurai, Gunbreaker, and Dancer all unlock at 50+ without being locked behind a physical barrier. They are all available in ARR areas.

[Wiccan026]

What’s even worse about Dark Knight, Machinist, and Astrologian being unlocked at level 30, is that they are gated behind Heavensward, while Red Mage, Samurai, Gunbreaker, and Dancer all unlock at 50+ without being locked behind a physical barrier. They are all available in ARR areas.

I honestly think sometimes some people post what they want and desire without thinking of the realities needed to create what they want (not to mention whether or not that's healthy for the game as a whole). Will come back to this in a bit... because we have two quick detours to make before looping back to this point.

When heavensward was created there was a reason why the jobs were gated at 30 versus starting them at 50 and it was due to for two reasons. The first was to create extra things to do, you'd have more people running fates and leveling dungeons to get those jobs up to make them playable for heavensward and the second reason it helped them understand their job better. The second reason was to help keep people from jumping into existing content new content with the new jobs without playing them to some degree, which is a precedent that exists with the newer jobs (sure there is a less of a level gap but the xp is a lot less needed to get from thirty to fifty and you have even more options to level once you hit fifty).

Also, moving those in charge of the jobs from heavensward to other areas doesn't make sense for lore or any of the intertwining stories that come out of it and at the time you get there you already can unlock the jobs. (Also if you're playing the game and are level sixty and haven't gotten ishgard you've either bought a job potion or you're playing the game very very differently than most do).

The instances created for the heavensward jobs alone currently don't make sense (at least for machinst or astrologian) because the job no longer works that way at all and they never wasted time to redo the instances. If they wasted time to recode things (get the jobs to adjusted to fifty once you get to heavensward) they would have to redo the instances.... which would cause a content situation we have for this expansion (yes I understand covid has caused a lot of delays, even without covid though the content were getting is completely different and "less" than other expansions because of there ARR rework.... and that was half needed for overall complaints they got from both new players and existing players).

Which than loops back to the point I made. Trying to lump the classes (because that's what they are based at on a coding level) into "combinable" jobs so you can level two jobs at once, like summoner/scholar... would take a massive re-work (whether or not they adjust the heavensward ones being started at fifty or not) which would mean allocating resources from somewhere else just to do that.

The fix to ARR was a necessary evil, most people, even if they are complaining about the "lack of content" at least get where the resources went to and why it had to happen. Trying to get folks to get on board another similar system for the next expansion just to combine jobs more than likely wouldn't.

[MirronTulaxia]

Yeah... no. This is a pretty bad idea. If it had been "let's try to expand each class to have two jobs, and maybe make up classes for the only jobs, which then could have a branching path" that still would have been bad. But "let's combine jobs regardless of shared weapon, thematics, or anything else with only the loosest of justifications"? I'm good. Summoner and Scholar, if anything, should be split apart (and hopefully they're working that out if it can be done) and share less with each other. They have very unique themes and such going for them and could stand to split more with less mechanical commonality.

In comparison to them though almost none of these jobs have anything in common. Mechanically they are all over the place, their weapons range from "kind of in the same ballpark (Paladin/Dark Knight)" to "they have zero overlap" (which is most of them). Thematically these jobs are all very different from the ones you're trying to pair them with, and even without seeing it Geomancer is an entirely separate job from White Mage, the two have next to no common ground in terms of themes. It's just... a mess. For no real reason either. It doesn't add any sort of positive gain except spending less time leveling things, but that's not really a good justification. You could just as easily solve that with some sort of bonus exp system where you get EXP for completing things you can spend on any class. But really, you should be playing the job you're leveling, so it's hardly surprising they don't do that.

[HeulGDarian]

Yeah... no. This is a pretty bad idea. If it had been "let's try to expand each class to have two jobs, and maybe make up classes for the only jobs, which then could have a branching path" that still would have been bad. But "let's combine jobs regardless of shared weapon, thematics, or anything else with only the loosest of justifications"? I'm good. Summoner and Scholar, if anything, should be split apart (and hopefully they're working that out if it can be done) and share less with each other. They have very unique themes and such going for them and could stand to split more with less mechanical commonality.

In comparison to them though almost none of these jobs have anything in common. Mechanically they are all over the place, their weapons range from "kind of in the same ballpark (Paladin/Dark Knight)" to "they have zero overlap" (which is most of them). Thematically these jobs are all very different from the ones you're trying to pair them with, and even without seeing it Geomancer is an entirely separate job from White Mage, the two have next to no common ground in terms of themes. It's just... a mess. For no real reason either. It doesn't add any sort of positive gain except spending less time leveling things, but that's not really a good justification. You could just as easily solve that with some sort of bonus exp system where you get EXP for completing things you can spend on any class. But really, you should be playing the job you're leveling, so it's hardly surprising they don't do that.

the day they split smn and sch is the day they both die.

[DrWho2010]

Ya know it’s sad that it’s like that. I have tons of ideas that I just write down on my phone, and I haven’t voiced them in years here because there always this crowd of naysayers that derail the thread before I can generate a discussion. And it’s not like there’s ever really a dev response where they say “oh that’s something we’re considering too.” It’s always the silent surprises with this dev team and they really need to cut that shit, because player input is what saved this game from oblivion. I have plans to update my Big Blue Feedback Thread, and I’ve also got a really hot concept for a Summoner rework that doesn’t compromise what Summoner is. I try to read what people are wanting out of this game and respond accordingly. It’s really not about me alone, ya know?

if they took every silly fan idea to heart this game would be a complete mess.

[AceofRains]

if they took every silly fan idea to heart this game would be a complete mess.

Interesting because in some regards, this game is a complete mess, which is why they have to go back and clean up older expansions. I’m suggesting a concept that cleans up something that’s all over the place.

Next time you post, try to contribute to the topic whether you are for or against, or please leave the thread.

[AceofRains]

Yeah... no. This is a pretty bad idea. If it had been "let's try to expand each class to have two jobs, and maybe make up classes for the only jobs, which then could have a branching path" that still would have been bad. But "let's combine jobs regardless of shared weapon, thematics, or anything else with only the loosest of justifications"? I'm good. Summoner and Scholar, if anything, should be split apart (and hopefully they're working that out if it can be done) and share less with each other. They have very unique themes and such going for them and could stand to split more with less mechanical commonality.

In comparison to them though almost none of these jobs have anything in common. Mechanically they are all over the place, their weapons range from "kind of in the same ballpark (Paladin/Dark Knight)" to "they have zero overlap" (which is most of them). Thematically these jobs are all very different from the ones you're trying to pair them with, and even without seeing it Geomancer is an entirely separate job from White Mage, the two have next to no common ground in terms of themes. It's just... a mess. For no real reason either. It doesn't add any sort of positive gain except spending less time leveling things, but that's not really a good justification. You could just as easily solve that with some sort of bonus exp system where you get EXP for completing things you can spend on any class. But really, you should be playing the job you're leveling, so it's hardly surprising they don't do that.

We do not need any justifications to clean up a system that’s all over the place. Nothing would be shared but exp. you still have the same jobs, and the same kits. You only have the added benefit of a 2 for 1. The game overall has the benefit of cleaning up level gates that were pragmatic at the launch of these jobs, but now redundant 2 expansions later.

I can understand the desire to separate Summoner and Scholor, but the fact of the matter is that they don’t need to share any abilities at all. Having them shared in a class is practical and it’s usually my go to class to level in a new expac because of the flexibility. I wish I could say the same for other jobs.

And by the contrary, the point is for them to have less in common, but not so less as grouping something like Paladin and Astrologian.

The whole idea came to me after reading some other players feedback about how Jobs are being homogenized because they want every job to have a spot in end game despite a meta forming around content no matter what. A system like this gives players more options of what they have isn’t meta. If they allow for this kind of flexibility they have less need to homogenize everything.

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

Don’t see why that would be the case. It’s sorely needed. Honestly they shouldn’t have been paired to begin with, it’s just hurting the jobs.

[QUOTE=AceofRains;5383528]Snip./QUOTE]

As I said, if you are that eager to do it just make it a generic system. But, again, the reason they don’t want to do that is because you’re able to run a job without any experience.

That you personally enjoy the system isn’t a good reason to expand it. And so far, as I said you could accomplish all the “boons” of that system with a generic bonus EXP system without pointlessly tying jobs together.

Almost all of your job pairings make no sense though. Like Black Mage and Astrologian. Not even getting into what you don’t know about tarot (which is clearly a lot) Astro doesn’t have any meaningful ties to Thaumaturge.

As far as this working as a system to prevent homogenization it doesn’t do anything of the sort. Having more options doesn’t mean each option is allowed to be less balanced.