Shared Classes Are Not Failures (ie SCH/SMN)

[ItMe]

It’s not my idea. It’s the original intention behind the job system.

Was it the original intention?
I only started playing in 4.4, but I thought back in 1.0 and 2.0 the purpose was so to use skills from the other classes you levelled a la FF5.




Either way, I'm not sure I understand how

All jobs should share a base class with another job, SOLELY for exp purposes.

is really accomplishing this

It revives the obsolete class system

I know you said you wanted to just let the thread die, but I'm genuinely confused.
If you don't respond I understand and I'm sorry.

[AceofRains]

I’ve followed this game heavily since like 1.0 alpha. Yes it was the original intention. In 1.4 the stones were first introduced, and the idea was for there to be even more jobs where a class could thereby become other jobs with different specialization. For something like Gladiator to specialize and become Paladin or another job such as Dark Knight. It was supposed to be FFXIV’s answer to WoW’s talents. Developing more jobs just took a very long time. In the end they left the concept because balancing the shared abilities of summoner and scholar was chaotic. Having that 2 in 1 however, Arcanist is one of the most efficient classes to level first, which is why I almost always do it. When it came to the ShB role quests, I was able to experience the story sooner by leveling 3 job/classes instead of 4.

What you we’re thinking of is simply the old concept of cross class skills, which were like reward abilities for having another corresponding class leveled. While they tried to keep that up, eventually they scrapped that for role actions. I think role actions started in 4.0.

That being said, if jobs are tied to classes, Classes are now the vessel for leveling, not Jobs. Therefore, classes now have more purpose in existing then being a temporary placeholder until jobs become relevant.

Thank you actually for being so genuine. I was kinda getting down about it, I apologize.

[Mhaeric]

I only started playing in 4.4, but I thought back in 1.0 and 2.0 the purpose was so to use skills from the other classes you levelled a la FF5.

Yup, it was. It was a "build-a-class" MMO for the first half of 1.0. They realized it didn't work, so they streamlined the classes into coherent and distinct entities followed very shortly by the job system once they were happy that the new base classes were working okay. This original job system was supposed to have 2 jobs for every class, but it was never realized in 1.x nor did they ever once state what the job combinations would be. They did keep the spirit of the mix-n-match idea with cross-class skills, however. In 2.0 they kept this mostly status quo aside from making new rotations and releasing ACN/SCH/SMN as the initial foray into the 2 job idea. Both the devs and player based quickly realized it wasn't as good as a concept as they thought it was, however, due to balancing issues from skills and needing to invest stats into one class over another which went against the philosophy of the armoury system. By the time 3.0 came around they explicitly said they would no longer be doing that style of development and started gradually separating SCH/SMN as much as they could. I suspect they would have divorced them completely, but for all the cutscenes and quests and progression that they share. Far easier to just make SCH be different when the job stone is equipped then go back and fix story and unlinking their progression.

Oh, and you're not the troll according to him, I am. Not that I care one way or the other if he wants to think that bluntly telling him his idea is bad makes me a troll.

[AceofRains]

You’re a troll because your initial effort was to do nothing to contribute to discussion and belittle my initial suggestion.

Now you come crawling back to STILL belittle me despite fully acknowledging what the Job System was meant to be and that it’s not my idea original idea.

Like, you’re already on ignore, but please stay out of this thread.

You can say what you want about me, that I do mental gymnastics, or that my ideas are bad.

I know what I have to say has it’s place.

There’s nothing you can say that will stop me from explaining my self to those who inquire.

So gtfo.

[Mhaeric]

Now you come crawling back to STILL belittle me despite fully acknowledging what the Job System was meant to be and that it’s not my idea original idea.

I agreed with the other poster on what the job system used to be. Not you.

[ItMe]

What I gathered, was exactly how the game currently exists, but making a bit more sense of it.

That is....

AST magically being level 30 when you unlock it. Instead of the same level as say RDM and SAM, or even GNB and DNC.

But they dont.

For no reason.

To me, now THAT is nonsense.

I know this was posted awhile ago, but as far as I can tell this still hasn't been addressed so I figured I'd shed some light on the pattern.

GNB and DNC start at 60.
They were added in 5.0 and the pevious expansions level cap was 70.
You have 10 levels to ease you into the class before you can start using it in the new expansion.

RDM and SAM start at 50.
They were added in 4.0 and the previous expansions level cap was 60.
You have 10 levels to ease you into the class before you can start using it in the new expansion.

AST, MCH, and DRK start at 30.
They were added in 3.0 and the previous expansions level cap was 50.
They gave you 20 levels to ease into them here because this is before SE decided on the "-10 levels from the previous expansions level cap" pattern.
But they did decide in Heavensward that they didn't wanna have the new classes start at level 1 (like SCH did) because they wanted players to be able to use the new classes in the new expansion relatively quickly.

[AceofRains]

I know this was posted awhile ago, but as far as I can tell this still hasn't been addressed so I figured I'd shed some light on the pattern.

GNB and DNC start at 60.
They were added in 5.0 and the pevious expansions level cap was 70.
You have 10 levels to ease you into the class before you can start using it in the new expansion.

RDM and SAM start at 50.
They were added in 4.0 and the previous expansions level cap was 60.
You have 10 levels to ease you into the class before you can start using it in the new expansion.

AST, MCH, and DRK start at 30.
They were added in 3.0 and the previous expansions level cap was 50.
They gave you 20 levels to ease into them here because this is before SE decided on the "-10 levels from the previous expansions level cap" pattern.
But they did decide in Heavensward that they didn't wanna have the new classes start at level 1 (like SCH did) because they wanted players to be able to use the new classes in the new expansion relatively quickly.

We did discuss this as well. At the time of release those level gates made sense. They especially feared having a situation like Arcanist’s release where everyone floods the story climb on a single job. However, Arcanist was a special case scenario. Since levels transferred over from 1.0 where leveling was abusively easy, and they only added a DPS class that could heal post 30, naturally it made for longer queue times. Everyone had everything maxed so Arcanist was the only new thing to pick up.

Then we had our HS trio. They simply didn’t want people to rush the story on a new job because it would take too much away from old content like fates and dungeon queues. However, these job unlocks are gates into the expansion. Unlike jobs that came after, which are available in ARR areas.

Now that we are here. I’m arguing that it’s time to drop that method. We have more than enough jobs. If someone wanted to take their 80 Conjurer-Geomancer through the story immediately, that should be their prerogative. There are always new rewards to other jobs that mitigate everyone from playing the same thing through the climb. And when 1 class has 2 jobs, it helps queue times pop faster, because people will gravitate towards what ever will get them into a queue faster. On top of that, queue times are even less a problem since you now have trusts to party with as you progress the story.

Overall, level gates acted as an artificial inhibitor that no longer serves a real purpose.

[ItMe]

[QUOTE=AceofRains;5385627]We did discuss this as well. [QUOTE]
Ah, musta missed it.




Maybe this was already discussed too, but I'm still not sure I quite grasp the logistics of this.

How will the game inform the player what's happened?
You could tell people in a live letter, sure, but how will this new system be conveyed to players in game? It's not like you can have an AST main log in one day and see they suddenly have a level 80 Thaumaturge.

And how would that relationship work the other way?
If a BLM main logged in and had a level 80 AST, would it just come with the soul crystal?

Or would you need to have both jobs started and you could then take a quest to couple them?
Where would the quest be? In the AST guild, the BLM guild, or would there be a new place full of NPCs that just give coupling quests?




And I know this is kind of an off point question, and you've said

We have more than enough jobs.

but wouldn't it be easier to just have new jobs couple to existing ones like SCH did with SMN?
Add Rune Fencer? Couple that to RDM.
Add Ranger? Couple to BRD.
Add Salve Maker (or whatever)? Couple to MCH.

[AceofRains]

[QUOTE=ItMe;5385695][QUOTE=AceofRains;5385627]We did discuss this as well.

Ah, musta missed it.




Maybe this was already discussed too, but I'm still not sure I quite grasp the logistics of this.

How will the game inform the player what's happened?
You could tell people in a live letter, sure, but how will this new system be conveyed to players in game? It's not like you can have an AST main log in one day and see they suddenly have a level 80 Thaumaturge.

And how would that relationship work the other way?
If a BLM main logged in and had a level 80 AST, would it just come with the soul crystal?

Or would you need to have both jobs started and you could then take a quest to couple them?
Where would the quest be? In the AST guild, the BLM guild, or would there be a new place full of NPCs that just give coupling quests?




And I know this is kind of an off point question, and you've said

but wouldn't it be easier to just have new jobs couple to existing ones like SCH did with SMN?
Add Rune Fencer? Couple that to RDM.
Add Ranger? Couple to BRD.
Add Salve Maker (or whatever)? Couple to MCH.

If you’ve ever taken an extended break from the game, you do get notices that explain that things changed while you were away. Besides, word like this would spread like wildfire.

You don’t just suddenly log in with the soul crystal. I have this explained on the original post. Coupling them would be automatic via the system. Anyone who unlocked a job, would have its level paired to that of the higher corresponding job. If I’m a level 80 Thaumaturge and for some wierd reason haven’t picked up the Astrologian soul crystal, I would just not have access to Astrologian.

For new players, say if I’m a level 50 rogue and level 12 gladiator, but I want to unlock dark knight. I can unlock the job stone, but you won’t be able to do anything with it until level 30 at which is the earliest you can equip a great sword. Ideally if you planned to go after Dark Knight, you would level Gladiator.

In another thread, I have expressed that this game really doesn’t need more jobs beyond the two that are coming next expansion. While I wouldn’t put past them to add more beyond that, cramming jobs in that have business otherwise continues to make leveling all of them a pain in the ass. If they would do that for new jobs, they could do it for the old.

[Daniolaut]

I know this was posted awhile ago, but as far as I can tell this still hasn't been addressed so I figured I'd shed some light on the pattern.

The reason its not been addressed, is because the people who came here bashing the OP without any rhyme and reason constantly call me a troll for doing the very thing this person did. That was posting something they think is a solid idea, and explaining why they think its a good idea.

Using logic in the forums makes you very unpopular. Calling people trolls and insulting them, makes you popular.

So I'm likely put on peoples ignore list. Which i'm perfectly fine with. It saves me the trouble of ignoring them.

Hopefully eventually all the actual trolls will be ignored and the people who care about logic and reason will possibly have a discussion one day. Although new people join often, so I doubt thats going to happen. But you can always hope!


Now, for the topic. I'm aware "why" the jobs were released at the levels they were released. I'm saying the inconsistency is nonsense. Especially to a new player.

This proposed idea cleans it all up.

The argument against it so far has been only "you're lazy" and "coding/its hard."

When all the systems for it are already in place.

Jobs sharing exp already exists, and level sync already exists. This, to my knowledge address' every single issue that can arise.

And no, OP is not asking for them to share skills. He literally asked they ONLY share EXP and nothing else.

Again, all this does, is clean up the exp progression. For people who level all jobs, they unlock classes already leveled. For people who dont, they dont have them leveled.

This in my opinion reduces people having jobs leveled and not knowing how they work.

Unlike OP, I would only link similar jobs though. DRK to WAR, and GNB to PLD as examples.

I also prefer to have things to do, and classes to start at level 1, but I also prefer things to make sense more than "having things to do."


Also, blaming 1.0 for all the problems is also nonsense.

People cant glorify Naoki Yoshida for "creating a brand new game from scratch" then also blame 1.0 for all of 2.0's issues. Did he create a brand new game with brand new servers, or did he do something "great" and "fix" a "horrible" game. It cant be both.

Lastly FFXI is a thing. So saying 2.0 has horrible coding because of 1.0 which FFXI was created by the same team as 1.0, yet it is to this day the most successful Final Fantasy, is a bit ridiculous.

FFXIV 1.0 is not even as close to being as bad as people make it out to be. if it was... then blaming 2.0's coding on 1.0... means 2.0 cant possibly be good/and-or Naoki Yoshida cant be credited for the success of 2.0, as he has taken a lot from version 1.0. Which in fact he has. He didnt create Elezen, Roegadyn, Eorzea, Miqo'te, Ishgard, Coerthas, even Hydaelyn. The 1.0 team did most all the work for FFXIV 2.0. All the 2.0 team did was lower the graphics demand and make the game more "user friendly." Again, they need to pick their argument.