Shared Classes Are Not Failures (ie SCH/SMN)

[AceofRains]

Yeah... no. This is a pretty bad idea. If it had been "let's try to expand each class to have two jobs, and maybe make up classes for the only jobs, which then could have a branching path" that still would have been bad. But "let's combine jobs regardless of shared weapon, thematics, or anything else with only the loosest of justifications"? I'm good. Summoner and Scholar, if anything, should be split apart (and hopefully they're working that out if it can be done) and share less with each other. They have very unique themes and such going for them and could stand to split more with less mechanical commonality.

In comparison to them though almost none of these jobs have anything in common. Mechanically they are all over the place, their weapons range from "kind of in the same ballpark (Paladin/Dark Knight)" to "they have zero overlap" (which is most of them). Thematically these jobs are all very different from the ones you're trying to pair them with, and even without seeing it Geomancer is an entirely separate job from White Mage, the two have next to no common ground in terms of themes. It's just... a mess. For no real reason either. It doesn't add any sort of positive gain except spending less time leveling things, but that's not really a good justification. You could just as easily solve that with some sort of bonus exp system where you get EXP for completing things you can spend on any class. But really, you should be playing the job you're leveling, so it's hardly surprising they don't do that.

We do not need any justifications to clean up a system that’s all over the place. Nothing would be shared but exp. you still have the same jobs, and the same kits. You only have the added benefit of a 2 for 1. The game overall has the benefit of cleaning up level gates that were pragmatic at the launch of these jobs, but now redundant 2 expansions later.

I can understand the desire to separate Summoner and Scholor, but the fact of the matter is that they don’t need to share any abilities at all. Having them shared in a class is practical and it’s usually my go to class to level in a new expac because of the flexibility. I wish I could say the same for other jobs.

And by the contrary, the point is for them to have less in common, but not so less as grouping something like Paladin and Astrologian.

The whole idea came to me after reading some other players feedback about how Jobs are being homogenized because they want every job to have a spot in end game despite a meta forming around content no matter what. A system like this gives players more options of what they have isn’t meta. If they allow for this kind of flexibility they have less need to homogenize everything.

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

Don’t see why that would be the case. It’s sorely needed. Honestly they shouldn’t have been paired to begin with, it’s just hurting the jobs.

[QUOTE=AceofRains;5383528]Snip./QUOTE]

As I said, if you are that eager to do it just make it a generic system. But, again, the reason they don’t want to do that is because you’re able to run a job without any experience.

That you personally enjoy the system isn’t a good reason to expand it. And so far, as I said you could accomplish all the “boons” of that system with a generic bonus EXP system without pointlessly tying jobs together.

Almost all of your job pairings make no sense though. Like Black Mage and Astrologian. Not even getting into what you don’t know about tarot (which is clearly a lot) Astro doesn’t have any meaningful ties to Thaumaturge.

As far as this working as a system to prevent homogenization it doesn’t do anything of the sort. Having more options doesn’t mean each option is allowed to be less balanced.

[HeulGDarian]

[QUOTE=MirronTulaxia;5383581]Don’t see why that would be the case. It’s sorely needed. Honestly they shouldn’t have been paired to begin with, it’s just hurting the jobs.

Snip./QUOTE]

As I said, if you are that eager to do it just make it a generic system. But, again, the reason they don’t want to do that is because you’re able to run a job without any experience.

That you personally enjoy the system isn’t a good reason to expand it. And so far, as I said you could accomplish all the “boons” of that system with a generic bonus EXP system without pointlessly tying jobs together.

Almost all of your job pairings make no sense though. Like Black Mage and Astrologian. Not even getting into what you don’t know about tarot (which is clearly a lot) Astro doesn’t have any meaningful ties to Thaumaturge.

As far as this working as a system to prevent homogenization it doesn’t do anything of the sort. Having more options doesn’t mean each option is allowed to be less balanced.

Oh idk how about
1) current Summoners is begging to get aetherflow back because without it his whole rotation is more rigid than it was
2) current scholars are begging to get back all the dps skills they lost since its now embedded on their identity and dont have any dps skills aside from a counterfeit holy
3) Its the only 2 classes were instead of being just an upgrade to your class youre actually a specialist with 2 paths to choose. something that alot of people love about them
4) their whole magic system is based on the arcanist system which is literally everywhere in the game so making a new one would stick out like a sore thumb
5) All the problems were fixed back in stormblood , with the removal of the attribute point system and traits to remove problems in balancing

So the moment you try to remove them you just created a massive plothole but also removed alot of identity that appeals to alot of players , JUST because some of you dont bother to actually see what actually is and isnt problematic currently and instead echo problems that are already gone and burried.

[AceofRains]

x

So what about level skip potions you can purchase on the mogstation. You run a job then without a lot of experience as well. That not an excuse at all. Most people will try out a job and try to optimize their hotbars before they just jump into a raid or dungeon. Like are you seriously afraid of a Summoner who only played Scholar trying to learn his job on a dungeon run? They’re going to figure it out, and be on their merry way. Guess what? That was me and it’s easy to learn! Learning your rotation if you normally play the game is not complicated.

Yes, this is a means to undo homogenization. You still balance jobs without having them all do the same thing. What they’re afraid of is a player being alienated because the job they leveled isn’t flavor of the month. You can’t alienate someone’s job if they all do the same thing. And so, if a player gets a 2 in 1 deal on a class, now they are less likely to be excluded and they can focus on a little bit of diversity. Now that there’s near 20 jobs and a rising level cap, there is just an exhausting amount of leveling to be done for people who want to try out every job at max capacity. A lot of players, my self included got older, got more responsibilities and just do not have the time to commit to it. I have wanted to play Warrior my self, but it’s been stuck at 50 because just the idea of going through all that leveling just for that one job only to find out it’s basically been homogenized to other tanks already mentally exhausts me. I’m not going to buy a level skip for that, I have already done so for Monk and Samurai, and I STILL haven’t had the time to level those to 80.

Btw, Tarot is introspective. Stop trying to be a know-it-all.

Astrology as in FFXIV might draw rather upon the heavenly stars, but entertain the thought... If you really had to pair Astrologian with one of the existing classes, where would you put it? Gladiator? Marauder? Lancer? Archer? Pugilist? Conjurer???

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

Something kind of weird going on here. But honestly none of those are terribly good reasons barring maybe the 4th, and that can be solved in other ways. It won't happen, but again it's a problem that plagues the jobs from inception onward.

Snip.

1. Those skip potions don't let you hit end game content without having done anything with the job.
2. Yes, you can run a job without a lot of experience. It's rather difficult to get to 80 without any experience as the job, though I suppose depending on how you view Pixie quests you could pull it off. This plan just makes it simpler, and again not really for any plus.
3. Given how many people I've ran into who clearly don't know what they're doing you're really only making me think we should probably dial back the boost potions, but honestly I understand the philosophy as it lets people play current stuff. But you're vastly overestimating how much people prepare before a dungeon or trial on average.
4. I'm more worried about the inverse, as a Scholar not knowing how to play right can easily wipe a party. DPS not knowing how to play will likely slow it to a crawl but usually doesn't lead to wiping. But it can happen, as I've ran into a Black Mage who clearly didn't know what he was doing, and it made all the fights drag. Coupled with poor plays from others it lead to wipes. It's also going to only increase if you're adding more characters who don't know what to do, to say nothing of raids.
5. That you did it fine is irrelevant. Everyone is not you. Everyone is not that Black Mage I ran with either mind you. But increasing the number of people with poor understanding of their jobs isn't a plus, and it only leads to more issues.
6. It really isn't a means to undo homogenization though. All the jobs aren't the same thing (that you think this really demonstrates you either have an abysmal understanding of jobs or a ridiculously low threshold), but again, having access to more jobs doesn't mean you can throw balance out the window. Which, again, is the focus. It isn't about "flavor of the month", it's about balance being the key deal.
7. If there are too many jobs then... don't play them all. You don't need to max level all of them to get a feel for them. If you want to then buckle in for a long ride. You shouldn't be trying a brand new job at level 80 anyways.
8. I'm likely older than you, and I certainly don't have the time to play this game as much as I want. This game is already very generous with free time as it is.
9. If you want to play as a Warrior I could very easily buy you a skip potion for it, would get you most of the way.
10. I practice tarot on a day to day basis, along with other methods of divination. I wouldn't remotely characterize it as introspective though. Perhaps you meant intuitive?
11. I mean, I wouldn't force a square peg through a round hole and pair it with any of them, that's kind of the thing.

[ChazNatlo]

God this thread is a mess.

Okay, parsing through it: Expansion Jobs should be tied to a Base class, many without any rhyme or reason. ((Honestly, if you're reaching for classes to affix classes to together and you just walk past WAR "I use my inner rage to power my abilities" and DRK "I use my Inner Hatred to fuel my abilities"))

If you Leveling either class/Job you will level the other: Important query, you may have addressed it or you may have not. If you have please direct me to where. If I want to unlock Samurai, Do I need to level Archer to 50? Do I unlock it at whatever level my Archer is? Or can I have a level 50 Lancer and do the Samurai Quest as normal and since Samurai unlocks at level 50, it drags my Archer/Bard up to level 50.

If we're going with "I hate tedium, I want to level my classes faster, Why stop there? Why not just say all Classes and jobs in similar groups ((Healer/Tank/Physical/Magical/Ranged)) share exp. It'd make everything easier for leveling, and it'd solve the problem of people suddenly jumping into a new job and not knowing their role ((Though they'd still have problems with their specific Job's mechanics)) And Match exp for the DoHs and DoLs.

As said above, one of the reasons they have you attain the job at a lower level than entry to the new expansion is so that you can level it and learn the mechanics in a familiar environment. Learning how to play the Job without the added issues present in learning a new dungeon or Boss and the associated mechanics. Whether or not you like it, giving a player a lower risk environment to learn mechanics is a staple of good game design.

[AceofRains]

God this thread is a mess.

Yes I agree. Thank you trolls.

As to your query I don’t think, I directly addressed that. Too many people derailing the important aspects of talking about it, so thank you for bringing that up. I think the best thing under a system like this would be to drop the requirements all together and simply award the job stones. This would mean that if you were say a level 1 Archer still, but had a class like let’s say Gladiator at 50, you can still get the stone, you’d just play Samurai or Bard from level 1 or what ever your Archer level is. Dragging the level up is only something that would take effect for players who already unlocked the job and had a pairing with a higher level. So if you already unlocked Samurai before the consolidation, and your Archer was still 1, it would get dragged up to Samurai’s level. For new players it would make their choice of class early on more meaningful.

For the purpose of this example, I also forgot talk about Bard at level 30. Archer is Bard before 30, so not having that job stone yet wouldn’t make much a difference.

I do hate the tedium. I’m not going to sugarcoat that. But leveling 10 classes instead of 20 jobs cuts it in half. That’s fair, because there are those who enjoy the leveling process. The role gear at endgame allows roles to essentially share an Item level so that basically already exists.

So like I said addressing your query, it’s only for those who unlocked before consolidation. Anyone new that hasn’t unlocked has to rely on the level the respective class is, which would give them a far longer windows to learn their job. I don’t particularly care for the mindset of babying players, but I know I can learn fast enough, and won’t just jump into end game content even when I know a job well. You are right, it is good game design to block out what’s new so people have time to adjust. But a lot of that should be up to the player as well. Every time a new champ comes out in league there are people who take it into ranked. Sometimes the first time pick sucks and sometimes they dominate. Never am I going to expect perfection out of random matchmaking because people still make mistakes on a role they know in and out. I can’t speak for everyone of course, but conversely I don’t really get why those who want to level grind every job has to speak for everyone.

[Payadopa]

I like leveling different jobs. Consolidating them gives me less to do in that regard. So, no, I'm against the idea.

[AceofRains]

I like leveling different jobs. Consolidating them gives me less to do in that regard. So, no, I'm against the idea.

I get how you feel about that, but this game already has so many things to do. It’s not like you can’t swap between the 2 jobs during the leveling process under this system- that even puts more fun into the process because you won’t get burnt out on 1 job. And why should I have to suffer doing something tedious and impractical just because you like it? If that aspect of the game is something you like that much go start a new game.

[ItMe]

Honestly, I'd low key hate this lol.
Conceptually it'd be cool.
But I started as SMN and when I went to try SCH I had a million skills unlocked and had a MUCH harder time making sense of them than if I had played the class up from level 1.