Next Jobs

[Sylvain]

I suppose I'm the only one who would see the Geo as a tank

[AceofRains]

It’s gonna be a healer y’all. I’m not gonna get sucked into this debate of maybes. It just is what it is.

Other interesting classes of note:
Mystic Knight: definitely possible IMO despite RDMs presence.
Animist: Alternative to beastmaster in many ways but also.....uses instruments. would enable SE to phase bard more fully into its hunter/sniper dynamic and bring music into the animist role. Highly unlikely but a fun thought bubble i once had.
Gambler: Ranged or semi melee depending on how its made, cards and dice. would feel quite at home having its job quests in the saucer.
Orator: speech healer? too similar to scholar probs.
Mime
Puppetmaster
Trickster: (probs too much like NIN, but I'd love a full dual swordplay focused job)
Corsair/Pirate/Musketeer could certainly work. tough tho since limsa pirates are kinda connected to rogues (ninjas) already for whatever reason.

To be quite honest after Geomancer and Beastmaster are added, this game really doesn’t need anymore. There’s just too much they need to get right with the jobs we already have.

If I had to entertain the thought for at least one more in each catagory however,

Tank: Rune Fencer, modeled after Celes and FFXI’s job of the same name.
Healer: Necromancer, highly requested and stands out from other Healers.
Melee: Viking, a real berserker DPS job.
Ranged: Gambler, a job that’s level progression is based on playing the Gold Saucer. It’s not limited, because limiting a job is bad design.
Caster: Onmyoji or Shaman, creates Shikigami or Totems- something to that effect.

[BasicBlake]

This is a whole can of worms thats been opened many times in many different threads. Read through some of my old posts via my profile if you want to find some of my thoughts on role distribution. In short tho because role classifications have changed over time and raid design role to slot balance is currently not the historical norm it is a gross oversimplification to conclude a new caster is next in the form you just used. Healer tho is a given both by historical role distribution, current role classification, and raid slot design/distribution.

I don’t care enough to go search it up to be honest because we won’t get anywhere in the argument when it comes to it being “roles have changed before” vs “the game website lists them as so”. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one!

[BasicBlake]

It’s gonna be a healer y’all. I’m not gonna get sucked into this debate of maybes. It just is what it is.





To be quite honest after Geomancer and Beastmaster are added, this game really doesn’t need anymore. There’s just too much they need to get right with the jobs we already have.

If I had to entertain the thought for at least one more in each catagory however,

Tank: Rune Fencer, modeled after Celes and FFXI’s job of the same name.
Healer: Necromancer, highly requested and stands out from other Healers.
Melee: Viking, a real berserker DPS job.
Ranged: Gambler, a job that’s level progression is based on playing the Gold Saucer. It’s not limited, because limiting a job is bad design.
Caster: Onmyoji or Shaman, creates Shikigami or Totems- something to that effect.

It’s not really a discussion of “maybes”. We have no instance of the 14 lore of a Geomancer being a healer, and there is quite a bit at this point for a class that hasn’t been implemented yet. Coupled with the fact that Geomancer has never been a healer in any FF title. And it would be too thematically close to white mage origins as a healer. It’s not a “maybe” it’s given information vs your “feeling”.

Also your thoughts on Onmyoji is just... Geomancer. They create shikigami, and their 1.0 abilities were going to be totems.

[MirronTulaxia]

Careful now, they didn't say it will be a healer, just that it could be.

This. No need to be careful but my stance is it could go either way really. I don’t think it’s guaranteed to be a healer any more than I think it’s guaranteed to be a CDPS. In terms of lore in game and in terms of mechanics in the series it has enough justification for either option. If we had Support as a dedicated role I would say it could be that too (and probably most fitting in that role), but we don’t.

[Seraphor]

There's kind of a big reason I listed it as a Ranged DPS instead of a healer. (Aside from it expressly not being a Disciple of Magic.)
But when it comes to Chemist, you have to handle its trademark ability: the Mix command.

You got two big options.

One, is you have Mixing be an on-demand ability that functions as the core of their actions. Mix A+B+C to get a bomb, mix B+C+D to get a heal. It would make for the backbone of a solid rotation.
But if the job is primarily a healer, what if you need to stop a damage Mix to actually... y'know... heal?
Easy solution, either make it purely for damage or purely for support, so there's no crossover or potions blowing up in your face because the situation changed. But if you make it purely for support, you have to deal with a high APM task that other healers can handle with one spell (and they do their damnedest to avoid having to use GCD heals as often as possible).
And if you do it to attack...
Healers don't have rotations, for a reason. Notice how they only get a few essential skills for attacking, with an extra or two cooldowns (or pseudo-cooldowns, like WHM's Lilies)? This is because if they had a "rotation" of any complexity, even as simple as a 3-step combo, they would have to step out of that rotation in order to do their main job - healing. They get the basics so they can put it down and pick it back up at any time; their attacks are just meant to be filler between the moments of actual healing.

The other option, is you have Mix be a series of CDs you only use periodically, like the old NIN Mudras or the old AST Spread. Bear in mind that this is not only derivative and hard to make distinct from those two examples, but can mean several Mix combinations will go avoided or unused. The old AST spread got reworked because players were using all of their tools to try and game exactly one perfect combination. Even NIN already avoids Hyoton or Shuriken Toss, and that's in a damage capacity where its rotation could have been built to maximize use of all options - not a support role where the emphasis is on a few priority tools for select emergency functions. I can't name the last time I used Synastry as an AST, because healers are already drowning in higher priority tools.

Mix just doesn't really work for a healer - which is exactly the conclusion the devs came to when they tried to push CHM back in HW, and led to us getting AST with the remnants of their Mix system.

It would work for a DPS, however. Consider that first option again in the hands of a DPS (since the second is, again, just Mudras): Someone who has the time to consider what to mix, who can get mileage out of multiple concoctions in a row ("Here's a corrosive gel that will make the target vulnerable to my attacks, here's a blasting agent that will make my next hit into a napalm attack, here's a powerful incendiary that will activate the blasting agent..."), and can have a niche in groups through pre-selecting concoctions for powerful opening or post-transition bursts. (I mean if you only attack once every 3 GCDs, that third one is gonna hit like a train. Start mixing when the boss invuls, or when you see an add phase coming... you may as well be casting Death.)

Back in HW, it's clear that they were entertaining the idea of Mix being used for various different effects, seeing as that's what AST ending up doing with it's cards.
However, they've since done a u-turn on that healer stance by removing all of those card effects.

This is the problem I see with all of these Chemist ideas lately, they keep using the Mix mechanic for various different buffs, debuffs and DPS skills. That isn't going to work and isn't going to happen.

However, there's plenty of scope for a Mix like mechanic to give us a new and unique healing mechanic, with absolutely nothing to do with buffs or debuffs.
This is the concept I've put in my Chemist idea, linked in my sig.
Essentially, you use oGCD skills to combine three different qualities on the job gauge, these are then applied to your 'special' heal (think Aspected Benefic/Aldoquium)
Use a Regen mix, your next heal has a regen, use a Shield mix, your next heal as a shield, use a potency mix and your next heal has a higher potency, use both and the heal has both a Regen and a Shield.
This is essentially combining the ability AST has to use either Regens or Shields, with the concept of SCH's Emergency Tactics, an oGCD that modifies their special heal Adloquium.

This would create a core signature healing kit that is unique, so not just another WHM clone.
It breaks down the Regen/Shield dichotomy which frankly has to happen if we're to get any new healer. (combine this with giving WHM a party shield, SCH an extra regen and making AST's CO do the opposite of the stance it's in)
And I can't see this mechanic fitting any more perfectly that it does for Chemist, it's literally forming combinations of qualities, it is still in all respects a 'Mix' mechanic.

I also think Chemist has to be a healer if we're to get it. It's the only other job/class besides WHM that has actually been a healer canonically.
Time Mage and Astrologer weren't healers before, and neither was Scholar, just as the only canon tank class before was Paladin.

[BasicBlake]

Back in HW, it's clear that they were entertaining the idea of Mix being used for various different effects, seeing as that's what AST ending up doing with it's cards.
However, they've since done a u-turn on that healer stance by removing all of those card effects.

This is the problem I see with all of these Chemist ideas lately, they keep using the Mix mechanic for various different buffs, debuffs and DPS skills. That isn't going to work and isn't going to happen.

However, there's plenty of scope for a Mix like mechanic to give us a new and unique healing mechanic, with absolutely nothing to do with buffs or debuffs.
This is the concept I've put in my Chemist idea, linked in my sig.
Essentially, you use oGCD skills to combine three different qualities on the job gauge, these are then applied to your 'special' heal (think Aspected Benefic/Aldoquium)
Use a Regen mix, your next heal has a regen, use a Shield mix, your next heal as a shield, use a potency mix and your next heal has a higher potency, use both and the heal has both a Regen and a Shield.
This is essentially combining the ability AST has to use either Regens or Shields, with the concept of SCH's Emergency Tactics, an oGCD that modifies their special heal Adloquium.

This would create a core signature healing kit that is unique, so not just another WHM clone.
It breaks down the Regen/Shield dichotomy which frankly has to happen if we're to get any new healer. (combine this with giving WHM a party shield, SCH an extra regen and making AST's CO do the opposite of the stance it's in)
And I can't see this mechanic fitting any more perfectly that it does for Chemist, it's literally forming combinations of qualities, it is still in all respects a 'Mix' mechanic.

I also think Chemist has to be a healer if we're to get it. It's the only other job/class besides WHM that has actually been a healer canonically.
Time Mage and Astrologer weren't healers before, and neither was Scholar, just as the only canon tank class before was Paladin.

This is why I am convinced we are going to get Chemist or a Chemist trope come 6.0 as a healer. It's been shown as an actual healer in previous games, it doesn't step on any toes thematically (This is very important to the dev team).

Breaking down the Regen/Shield split I think is a top priority when it comes to a new healer. Which baffles my mind when people want Geomancer to be a healer when it shares similarities to white mage and people are all "B A R R I E R". So you got another white mage scholar combo, congrats healers, can't wait to watch you guys complain for the next 6 year until another healer is released. (So you guys get another whm/sch combo and you have reduced geomancer to a 3 spell whammy for dps, sounds fantastic......)

Also, the Dev team has been very good about implementing things that did not work out at the time. Samurai melee was pushed back but ultimately released, Viera was pushed back from HW and now we have them, Chemist was supposed to come with HW but was pushed back. And then finally we were supposed to get an Eastern Caster with Stormblood that they couldn't get right in time (But we sure did get a lot of eastern caster themes in the whole expansion).

I will be very interested to see if we get to see Bajsaljen in action with the Bozjan Front, or if not him, other medics he has trained.

[MirronTulaxia]

Funnily that’s why I think it isn’t likely. Or at least not the way people expect it. It’s too different. For the most part the jobs are within a relative range from each other, something well outside of that doesn’t make any sense with what they’ve done.

That said who even knows where Healers will be next expansion. They could get radically changed again which makes it hard to predict things.

And what you value in Geomancer is different from what I value in it. Being a healer or DPS doesn’t ruin what makes it a Geomancer, either one of those is different from how it normally is. But you can build it in either role and it’ll still be a Geomancer. So long as they make it play with ground targeted effects (which is the closest analog they can have for terrain) and bonuses while in one (think ley lines but more drastic) I can see it still feeling like one.

Granted given how they’ve done other jobs it’s just as likely it’ll be something that is at best vaguely similar to past iterations.

[BasicBlake]

Funnily that’s why I think it isn’t likely. Or at least not the way people expect it. It’s too different. For the most part the jobs are within a relative range from each other, something well outside of that doesn’t make any sense with what they’ve done.

That said who even knows where Healers will be next expansion. They could get radically changed again which makes it hard to predict things.

And what you value in Geomancer is different from what I value in it. Being a healer or DPS doesn’t ruin what makes it a Geomancer, either one of those is different from how it normally is. But you can build it in either role and it’ll still be a Geomancer. So long as they make it play with ground targeted effects (which is the closest analog they can have for terrain) and bonuses while in one (think ley lines but more drastic) I can see it still feeling like one.

Granted given how they’ve done other jobs it’s just as likely it’ll be something that is at best vaguely similar to past iterations.

You're right, who knows where healers will be next expansion. They could get wild and even delete the role as a whole. It's an mmo, they aren't going to do anything crazy in terms of healers and what they will be doing. I would expect slight tweaks but nothing drastic. 14 isn't really looking to break the mold like smaller start up mmos that are trying to get noticed.

I don't see why Chemist is that different to you. It's going to have the same heals as anything else just renamed and reskinned. It's going to have a gimmick and job gauge to set it apart and give it a unique feel, and it would have a group rez for a LB3. At the end of the day all healers are just characters casting renamed versions of the same heals with slight differences. Balance and homogenization wont allow for variance for higher levels of gameplay. None of this matters at expert roulette, but at higher levels the healers all need to perform in a way that makes them all viable. The only difference is Chemist or whatever iteration we get of it, steps on 0 toes. There is no wind/water/stone, no cards or time/space magic, no barriers.

I just don't see them going the terrain route. There would have been at least SOME hint, or example of it. With multiple examples in game and out of game of the Geomancer class and what they actually focus on, terrain has never once been mentioned or used. Implementing the class and wanting it to focus on terrain (but only 3 elements of the terrain seems... not of sound mind.), when they already have a focus on 3 elements, shikigami, purification and removal of spirits, now an addition of TERRAIN? That's too much, it's convoluted.

[MirronTulaxia]

Oh, I meant more Seraphor’s idea. Chemist broadly is fine, just again I don’t expect what people seem to keep pitching.

And yeah, Healers could be in a very different place. Like right now the whole concern is “how do you do shields and regents” basically, but they could turn that concern into something very different. That’s the issue really to me.

As for hints about terrain, I would honestly call the barriers a hint at that kind of theme. But it’s also part and parcel with the jobs identity. It’s much like doing Conjurer there isn’t any hints at holy but you can expect it to show up because that’s just an important aspect of the job.