Red Mage: Potential adjustments

[Gruntler]

[*]Redesign AoE slightly for greater available nuance and, ideally, intermixing with sword skills. If we wanted to go really crazy with this, we could even have Moulinet get a combo of its own and for the two to both progress one another (such that you could ST->AoE->ST->Flare/Holy->Scorch).[/LIST]

I too like abilities that exist to handle content that doesn't exist.

We don't have the button room to add combo bits to the AoE to satisfy people for whom 6 buttons isn't enough. So what are we giving up for this?

And why would single-target/I need AoE but only for this one gcd/back to single target be a needed burst phase in any content in this game, and if that content were to exist, how is that problem not solved by 'Contre Sixte exists, is more flexible, and does a better job'? (This goes for people who want 'an AoE Finisher' after the single target combo, seriously what situation is this remotely useable?)

[Shurrikhan]

We don't have the button room to add combo bits to the AoE to satisfy people for whom 6 buttons isn't enough. So what are we giving up for this?

You realize RDM already has among the lower button counts, right? And, we definitely have the room for even the most button-anxious players... if we just didn't go out of way to waste it.

We've already consolidated Verflare, Verholy, and Scorch, but there's zero reason for the melee chain itself to take up separate keys. That's a further 2 saved right there.
There is zero reason to have Veraero II and Verthunder II when you could accomplish more nuance with, say, just having Scatter duplicate the last cast at 50% AoE damage atop a base potency. That's another 2 buttons saved, and more nuance available atop a unique focus-target capacity.
Further, if, as above, we had ways to leverage partial combos, there'd be no need for Reprise as a mere combo-delaying skill. That's a fifth button.

But let's just stick with the 4 for now. That gives us plenty of room. Heck, even with just the melee combo consolidated, we'd still have the fewest required buttons of any job, iirc.

And why would single-target/I need AoE but only for this one gcd/back to single target be a needed burst phase in any content in this game

Virtually nothing is technically "needed". Being able to charge your melee combo off Moulinet would just means that you're no longer screwed out of Verflare/Verholy if you happen to need burst AoE damage instead of ST damage. It's an AoE and fluidity buff; plain and simple.

and if that content were to exist, how is that problem not solved by 'Contre Sixte exists, is more flexible, and does a better job'?

I wasn't aware that Contre Sixte dealt 600-800 AoE potency and was bankable, rather than a CD that almost always ought to be used on refresh.

(This goes for people who want 'an AoE Finisher' after the single target combo, seriously what situation is this remotely useable?)

Usually, the request is merely that Verflare, Verholy, and Scorch deal 50% of their damage as AoE, but okay... It would usable any time you can combo ~1.8 GCDs before adds are gathered. Given that it often takes ~1.8 GCDs for adds to be tightly gathered around a longer-term or focus target, that's pretty often. Like, literally any dungeon pull with a higher HP mob near its end. Rather than ripping threat off the tank mid-gather, you dive the far target and charge back-to-back heavy AoEs.

[Gruntler]

but there's zero reason for the melee chain itself to take up separate keys.

So you want to remove the melee combo buttons to add a melee combo button to a place where it matters less? That makes no sense.

no need for Reprise

....reprise's job is more for movement when you can't stutterstep.

But let's.... .

But what is the gain? You make raids worse for raiders, and you make dungeons worse for dungeon-grinders, by moving complexity from where complexity is rewarded, to where complexity is not desired.

It's an AoE and fluidity buff; plain and simple.[/B]

There's no need for this 'fluidity.' The content where you'd use this does not exist.

I wasn't aware that Contre Sixte dealt 600-800 AoE potenc

In AoE situations the gcd you use Contre Sixte in does, in fact, do 620-867 potency per 2.5 seconds. RDM is better AoE than a summoner, in 2021. If you hypothetically needed to hold on to it for a couple seconds for a sudden AoE pack it would kill, you'd hold on to it--or just let someone else do it.

Usually, the request is merely that Verflare, Verholy, and Scorch deal 50% of their damage as AoE

Useless. There's no use for this except in two-enemy packs. Only one exists in expert roulette right now, and none in anything harder.

The damage this would cause to the game, however, is it would become a 'false choice.' Players would opt into using single target damage because 'Verholy/Verflare/Scorch are my AoE' which will make your dungeon experience worse overall.

~1.8 GCDs

You lose 150 AoE damage from the resources you piss away.

That's the problem--you'd have RDMs giving up 1220 AoE damage in 10 seconds to do 650 because 'finishers feel cooler.' Traps are bad.

We'd be better off with a different concept.

Introduce a second resource, which would be built by the use of Moulinets, and the ogcd attacks. Gather enough, and you'd be able to use one spell--that spell would be a big blap that would have potency sufficient for both aoe and single target situations. It would also consume Verstone/Verfire Ready for a bit of extra damage and balance guage--this would make it a tool for not only being a cool blast, but also a lossless way to clear procs going into melee so that we never need to overright procs again.

That one button would actually solve problems that exist, while adding gameplay, rather than tricking players into bad gameplay to solve encounters which don't meaningfully exist.

[Shurrikhan]

Introduce a second resource, which would be built by the use of Moulinets, and the ogcd attacks. Gather enough, and you'd be able to use one spell--that spell would be a big blap that would have potency sufficient for both aoe and single target situations. It would also consume Verstone/Verfire Ready for a bit of extra damage and balance guage--this would make it a tool for not only being a cool blast, but also a lossless way to clear procs going into melee so that we never need to overright procs again.

That one button would actually solve problems that exist, while adding gameplay, rather than tricking players into bad gameplay to solve encounters which don't meaningfully exist.

Removing the need to manage what might otherwise become waste for a "big blap" that is only charged by doing what you would have done anyways is "adding gameplay"? I mean if it's as bankable as Foul, then maybe, but all it takes is being stuck with tuning similar to Apex Arrow (the closest equivalent to that charged-up secondary resource) and its window of optimal use will be very small indeed.

But what is the gain? You make raids worse for raiders, and you make dungeons worse for dungeon-grinders, by moving complexity from where complexity is rewarded, to where complexity is not desired.

...How the hell is hitting Riposte, Zwerchhau, and Redoublement via separate buttons "rewarded complexity"? It's literally bloat, so long as they've no separate actions to be performed. And where's the consensus that RDM AoE is perfectly engaging and satisfactory and certainly could not fit the slightest bit more nuance?

So you want to remove the melee combo buttons to add a melee combo button to a place where it matters less? That makes no sense.

No. I haven't added a single button. What are you on about? There's a button for melee single target (Ri->Zw->Re) and a button for melee AoE (Moulinet). That's it. I'm just saying that if 21 buttons makes so terrifying large a toolkit, it can easily be shrunk to 17 with zero loss in depth.

Useless. There's no use for this except in two-enemy packs.

You've literally just stated a use, nevermind that delaying a melee cycle, desyncing from raid buffs, can have potency consequences of its own. Not to mention the tremendous amount of potency you've left out of the equation. (See below.)

Also, it's three targets. It comes out ahead at three targets. Single-target damage is still adding to total damage. When there are targets enough for the difference in AoE damage to eclipse the difference in single-target damage beyond said AoE, the pure AoE option comes out ahead; short of that, it falls behind.

You lose 150 AoE damage from the resources you piss away.

In 4.1 GCDs you will have done 2280 ST potency, 650 AoE potency, generated 35 Mana, and forced a proc.

Having spent the same 80 gauge on 4 casts of Moulinet would, indeed, have done 800 AoE potency, but also have generated no Mana or procs.

That would indeed be 150 AoE more per gauge expenditure, but at the cost of nearly 2 Moulinets further Mana generation and another 1480 potency to the primary target. At 3 more targets, even accounting for time spendable elsewhere, the melee combo comes out ahead.

That's the problem--you'd have RDMs giving up 1220 AoE damage in 10 seconds to do 650 because 'finishers feel cooler.'

Alright, let's review.

10 seconds. The melee combo takes 10.2 at 0 SpS. The closest pure AoE use of that time is 11 seconds for Moulinet x4 and 2 standard AoE GCDs. Let's adjust for those slight differences in frame later.
The melee combo, again, would deal 650n + 1630 potency while generating 35 Mana and a proc. The pure AoE play would deal 1140n potency while generating 10 Mana. That is a difference of 490n potency.

1630/490 = 3.33. Until 4 targets struck, even ignoring the added mana generation, the melee combo would come out ahead. And that's before we even standardize them to 10 seconds, whereby the actual ppgcd of the pure AoE option is only 93% of what's listed, relative to the melee combo, which would place it nearer a breakpoint of 3.6 targets.

Yes, that means that common "50%" suggestion is overpowered, at least relative to the current Moulinet values (which are themselves rather pathetic, as they deal less than 40 ppgcd over a standard AoE gcd when accounting for their own opportunity costs in mana otherwise generated for their own use). But it's absurd to say a use case is necessarily limited to 2 targets, let alone impossible.

In AoE situations the gcd you use Contre Sixte in does, in fact, do 620-867 potency per 2.5 seconds.

"In", not "per". You've an average of 170n ppgcd (120->220) and 3-5 Mana/gcd, which amounts to 7-11 additional potential potency via potential Moulinet use charged. You can add CS's 400 potency to any one of those GCDs, not to each.

That still, however, will not get you to 867 even for the single GCD unless multiplying it per Maim and Mend II (which would be utterly pointless, as we're comparing these potencies only others also on RDM), or raid buffs, which will be variable among CS casts. So I'm not sure what mathematical hoops you've leapt through to arrive at 867 sharp.

But, fair enough: Under Brotherhood, Lord of Crowns, Embolden, Chain Stratagem, Battle Voice, and benefiting from your Dance Partner's Standard Finish, and multiplying for Maim and Mend II, you'd manage 975-1180 effective potency in a single AoE GCD if having added Contra Sixte. Which, sure, sound high until you realize BLM can there do 930 off a mere Foul, which is available more frequently than even the traited Contra Sixte and is far more bankable. Provided sufficiently low ping and SpS, meanwhile, a Summoner can actually fit 1370 effective AoE potency into a GCD under those same conditions. For all any of that matters.