Bot issues

[Doozer]

It's basic contract law, take a class if you're interested. All I'm willing to do is explain it to you in very simple terms.

So, try this. You "agreeing" to something doesn't make it legal. If SE added something to their ToS that stated SE reserves the right to enslave your family, slavery would still be illegal even if you clicked agree.

I'll give you an example that might be a little more pertinent. Pretend SE had a big new promotion...

SE: "Amazing new deal: 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200!!"

*2 weeks later after... let's say... $15 million in revenue from the new deal*

SE: "Game servers are shutting down forever. No refunds for the 'Amazing new deal.' lolololololololbye."

SE would definitely face a class action lawsuit, and if they showed up to court with the little "we're allowed to steal from our customers" clause in their ToS, they'd be laughed out. SE knows what they can and can't do in terms of basically stealing money for digital property, which is why they're diligent in evidencing their bans. It's why ALL companies are diligent.

You have basic rights and protections as a consumer that can't be taken away from you, even if you click "agree" on a random ToS that's worded in a way that looks like they could be taken away from you. SE can't take your money then refuse to provide the service you paid for unless they have a good, strongly evidenced, legally sound reason for doing so.

You're literally making up a fake scenario to prove your argument. Maybe you should take a class on how to do that better.

SE has never and will never have some 'amazing new deal' of 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200. Nor would they suddenly shut the game down after a bit of short term profit. That part in the user agreement refers to them closing your account for any reason they see fit because that's what you agree to when you 'sign' the agreement. You don't own the game or your sub. It's a license that they can revoke at any time. It says so in the User Agreement. It's not a 'random ToS'. Everyone agrees to the same one when they make their accounts, there's nothing random about that. Please learn what words mean.

Clearly you haven't even read the user agreement, so I won't waste my time arguing with someone that doesn't know what we're even arguing about. In the future though, I recommend reading things in their entirety before you agree to them.

[Goji1639]

You're literally making up a fake scenario to prove your argument. Maybe you should take a class on how to do that better.

SE has never and will never have some 'amazing new deal' of 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200. Nor would they suddenly shut the game down after a bit of short term profit. That part in the user agreement refers to them closing your account for any reason they see fit because that's what you agree to when you 'sign' the agreement. You don't own the game or your sub. It's a license that they can revoke at any time. It says so in the User Agreement. It's not a 'random ToS'. Everyone agrees to the same one when they make their accounts, there's nothing random about that. Please learn what words mean.

Clearly you haven't even read the user agreement, so I won't waste my time arguing with someone that doesn't know what we're even arguing about. In the future though, I recommend reading things in their entirety before you agree to them.

All I'm demonstrating with those scenarios is that ToS doesn't allow SE to do anything illegal, like steal from you.

SE knows this, and that's why they don't just take your money and then decide "Nah, it's cheaper for us if we don't let you play. Thanks for the money, though!" Even if it looks like the ToS is saying they can do that, that's still illegal.

If SE wants to ban you they need an actual reason and supporting evidence. Otherwise if they don't provide what you paid for it's theft. It's a shame so many people don't seem to understand that they actually have rights as a consumer.

[Doozer]

All I'm demonstrating with those scenarios is that ToS doesn't allow SE to do anything illegal, like steal from you.

SE knows this, and that's why they don't just take your money and then decide "Nah, it's cheaper for us if we don't let you play. Thanks for the money, though!" Even if it looks like the ToS is saying they can do that, that's still illegal.

If SE wants to ban you they need an actual reason and supporting evidence. Otherwise if they don't provide what you paid for it's theft. It's a shame so many people don't seem to understand that they actually have rights as a consumer.

Again, did you not read the user agreement? They don't "steal" from you by banning you. You don't get "provided" what you paid for. You don't get an item that you get to keep no matter what. You can have a disc or download of the game all you want, but you are paying for the service, which is a license. They can revoke it at any time. You do not own your service account, it is licensed to you. If you go to a store and buy an item, obviously that store can't just come to your house and take it back. This is not what that is. It is a subscription service.

Also you're literally arguing against yourself at this point. "Here's a fake scenario to prove my point, but also that scenario will never happen, so that's also proof that I'm right". It's very unlikely that SE will just delete someone's account because that makes no sense, but they reserve the right to. That's. what. you. agree. to. Here's the link to the user agreement again in case you missed it and would like to read it. I recommend paying extra attention to the section that says "AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON" as well as "YOUR FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNT AND ANY VIRTUAL GOODS AND CHARACTERS DO NOT HAVE ANY MONETARY VALUE". It's pretty relevant. But what do I know, I didn't take A Class on contract law.

[Goji1639]

Again, did you not read the user agreement? They don't "steal" from you by banning you. You don't get "provided" what you paid for. You don't get an item that you get to keep no matter what. You can have a disc or download of the game all you want, but you are paying for the service, which is a license. They can revoke it at any time. You do not own your service account, it is licensed to you. If you go to a store and buy an item, obviously that store can't just come to your house and take it back. This is not what that is. It is a subscription service.

Also you're literally arguing against yourself at this point. "Here's a fake scenario to prove my point, but also that scenario will never happen, so that's also proof that I'm right". It's very unlikely that SE will just delete someone's account because that makes no sense, but they reserve the right to. That's. what. you. agree. to. Here's the link to the user agreement again in case you missed it and would like to read it. I recommend paying extra attention to the section that says "AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON". It's pretty relevant. But what do I know, I didn't take A Class on contract law.

Writing something illegal down and attaching an "agree" button to it doesn't make it legal. SE added that to their ToS knowing full well it doesn't excuse them from providing the service they promised for the money they received. They know their ability to terminate your access to their service is restricted by contract law, even if they don't spell it out for you in their ToS.

I think I understand why they worded it like that now, though. Apparently there are people who honestly believe by clicking an agree button they're basically waiving all of their rights, so they wouldn't in any way contest being wrongfully banned.

What if somewhere deep in their ToS SE buried a clause that stated they could force you into slave labor? Would you do it? You clicked agree...

[Doozer]

Writing something illegal down and attaching an "agree" button to it doesn't make it legal. SE added that to their ToS knowing full well it doesn't excuse them from providing the service they promised for the money they received. They know their ability to terminate your access to their service is restricted by contract law, even if they don't spell it out for you in their ToS.

I think I understand why they worded it like that now, though. Apparently there are people who honestly believe by clicking an agree button they're basically waiving all of their rights. What if somewhere deep in their ToS SE buried a clause that stated they could force you into slave labor? Would you do it? You clicked agree...

I guess I'm not the only one here that doesn't understand contract law. It seems you and I are in the same boat.

But you're just taking this around in circles and moving the goalpost, so if you could provide me with a written statement from someone at SE stating that they "know their ability to terminate your access to their service is restricted by contract law" and all that, that would be great. I'm just stating what's in the user agreement, but you seem to speak for SE themselves, so if this is a legal matter, why not back it up with a statement from them? Or do you not have access to that? Then maybe you should leave the assumptions at home or maybe taking one more contract law class for good measure.

There's nothing illegal about terminating your account if they feel like it. You agreed to allow them to do it. If it was illegal I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to put it in their user agreement, I would think. Weird that you play and sub to a game that breaks the law, though. Does that mean you're breaking the law by agreeing to it? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer like you.

As for the slave labour thing, I read the agreement before signing. It's not that long. And if you have time to argue about this, you have time to read it too. I suggest you do.

Back up your claims with real facts and not conjecture. My defence is the user agreement itself. All you have is opinions, it seems.

[Goji1639]

I guess I'm not the only one here that doesn't understand contract law. It seems you and I are in the same boat.

But you're just taking this around in circles and moving the goalpost, so if you could provide me with a written statement from someone at SE stating that they "know their ability to terminate your access to their service is restricted by contract law" and all that, that would be great. I'm just stating what's in the user agreement, but you seem to speak for SE themselves, so if this is a legal matter, why not back it up with a statement from them? Or do you not have access to that? Then maybe you should leave the assumptions at home or maybe taking one more contract law class for good measure.

There's nothing illegal about terminating your account if they feel like it. You agreed to allow them to do it. If it was illegal I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to put it in their user agreement, I would think. Weird that you play and sub to a game that breaks the law, though. Does that mean you're breaking the law by agreeing to it? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer like you.

As for the slave labour thing, I read the agreement before signing. It's not that long. And if you have time to argue about this, you have time to read it too. I suggest you do.

Back up your claims with real facts and not conjecture. My defence is the user agreement itself. All you have is opinions, it seems.

SE isn't going to release a written statement that they're bound by contract law. All businesses are bound by contract law; it's common knowledge. These protections are exactly why you can't accidentally "sign" yourself into slavery, just because page 200 in a 500 page contract had a "slave" clause you missed.

The problem is that you, and many others, don't actually understand how contracts work.

I think the specific wording of the ToS is SE kind of taking advantage of that fact. It's amazing to me that you honestly believe SE can take your money for $100's in promissory digital services, and then just refuse you access to those services for absolutely no reason. I wonder how many people lost accounts for no reason, and didn't even bother to contest it because they thought clicking "agree" on something made stealing from them perfectly legal.

[Doozer]

It's amazing to me that you honestly believe SE can take your money for $100's of promissory digital services, and just refuse you access to those services for absolutely no reason. I wonder how many people lost accounts for no reason, and didn't even bother to contest it because they thought clicking "agree" on something made stealing from them perfectly legal.

Oh good. Now I know you didn't read it. That makes leaving you to your ignorance a lot easier.

By the way, I'll repeat it again, in the agreement it says,

YOU ACQUIRE NO OWNERSHIP OR PROPERTY RIGHTS IN ANY CHARACTER OR OTHER IN-GAME VIRTUAL GOOD, AND ARE ONLY LICENSED TO USE SUCH CHARACTERS AND ASSETS ASSOCIATED WITH YOUR FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNT SUBJECT TO THE CONDITIONS SET FORTH IN THE AGREEMENTS. YOU AGREE THAT YOUR FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNT AND ANY VIRTUAL GOODS AND CHARACTERS DO NOT HAVE ANY MONETARY VALUE. SQUARE ENIX MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNTS, CHARACTERS, VIRTUAL GOODS, OR THE SERVICE ALTOGETHER, AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY TO YOU.

It's not "$100's of promissory digital services" because those things have no monetary value if you sign the agreement. Which you did. Ponder on that, because clearly I could copy and paste the whole agreement here and you would still say "uhhh I can't read, take a class on contract law please".

This is getting off topic anyway. Let's just move on. I'm getting tired of this. I can only show you the agreement in question so many times before it gets irritating that you're not even trying. You can argue against this, but I won't be here to see it.