Bot issues

[Goji1639]

Actually, yes they can. In the user agreement (linked here), it states:



(Bolded for emphasis)

You agree to the user agreement and you agree to whatever is in it. That's how it works. They can delete your account just for fun and there's nothing you can do about it.

There are regulations and consumer protections that prevent companies from stealing from their customers. If there weren't SE could add "you agree to have your personal information sold to criminals" to page 110 of their ToS and magically not be liable for their criminal actions. That's not how it works.

I can't create a service, take your money, and then prevent you from accessing the service simply because I feel like it. That's incredibly illegal, and no matter what the ToS says SE can't do that. If they did they would be facing a massive class action lawsuit and that ToS would not hold up. SE does their due diligence because they have to.

That clause in their ToS is likely meant to cover the eventuality that their servers may shut down one day. That's different.

[Doozer]

No, that's not how it works. There are regulations and consumer protections that prevent companies from stealing from their customers. If there weren't SE could add "you agree to have you personal information sold to criminals" to page 110 of their ToS and magically not be liable for their criminal actions.

I can't create a service, take your money, and then prevent you from accessing the service simply because I feel like it. That's incredibly illegal, and no matter what the ToS says SE can't do that. If they did they would be facing a massive class action lawsuit and that ToS would not hold up. SE does their due diligence because they have to.

That clause in their ToS is likely meant to cover the eventuality that their servers may shut down one day. That's different.

Actually they can just do that. They're a private company, and you agree to their terms when you create your account. You can't just say "that's different, that's not how it works" and it will be so. They reserve the right to do anything to your account at any time, and you agreed to that because you're here posting. You can't just call the police because you got banned in a video game and don't know why.

But if I'm wrong, please direct me to a website where I can read about this law you say they would be breaking. Though it's important to know that SE does originate in Japan and I'm not 100% sure how laws relating to those things work internationally. So I understand if you're unable to produce that for me.

[Goji1639]

Actually they can just do that. They're a private company, and you agree to their terms when you create your account. You can't just say "that's different, that's not how it works" and it will be so. They reserve the right to do anything to your account at any time, and you agreed to that because you're here posting. You can't just call the police because you got banned in a video game and don't know why.

But if I'm wrong, please direct me to a website where I can read about this law you say they would be breaking. Though it's important to know that SE does originate in Japan and I'm not 100% sure how laws relating to those things work internationally. So I understand if you're unable to produce that for me.

It's basic contract law, take a class if you're interested. All I'm willing to do is explain it to you in very simple terms.

So, try this. You "agreeing" to something doesn't make it legal. If SE added something to their ToS that stated SE reserves the right to enslave your family, slavery would still be illegal even if you clicked agree.

I'll give you an example that might be a little more pertinent. Pretend SE had a big new promotion...

SE: "Amazing new deal: 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200!!"

*2 weeks later after... let's say... $15 million in revenue from the new deal*

SE: "Game servers are shutting down forever. No refunds for the 'Amazing new deal.' lolololololololbye."

SE would definitely face a class action lawsuit, and if they showed up to court with the little "we're allowed to steal from our customers" clause in their ToS, they'd be laughed out. SE knows what they can and can't do in terms of basically stealing money for digital property, which is why they're diligent in evidencing their bans. It's why ALL companies are diligent.

You have basic rights and protections as a consumer that can't be taken away from you, even if you click "agree" on a random ToS that's worded in a way that looks like they could be taken away from you. SE can't take your money then refuse to provide the service you paid for unless they have a good, strongly evidenced, legally sound reason for doing so.

[Doozer]

It's basic contract law, take a class if you're interested. All I'm willing to do is explain it to you in very simple terms.

So, try this. You "agreeing" to something doesn't make it legal. If SE added something to their ToS that stated SE reserves the right to enslave your family, slavery would still be illegal even if you clicked agree.

I'll give you an example that might be a little more pertinent. Pretend SE had a big new promotion...

SE: "Amazing new deal: 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200!!"

*2 weeks later after... let's say... $15 million in revenue from the new deal*

SE: "Game servers are shutting down forever. No refunds for the 'Amazing new deal.' lolololololololbye."

SE would definitely face a class action lawsuit, and if they showed up to court with the little "we're allowed to steal from our customers" clause in their ToS, they'd be laughed out. SE knows what they can and can't do in terms of basically stealing money for digital property, which is why they're diligent in evidencing their bans. It's why ALL companies are diligent.

You have basic rights and protections as a consumer that can't be taken away from you, even if you click "agree" on a random ToS that's worded in a way that looks like they could be taken away from you. SE can't take your money then refuse to provide the service you paid for unless they have a good, strongly evidenced, legally sound reason for doing so.

You're literally making up a fake scenario to prove your argument. Maybe you should take a class on how to do that better.

SE has never and will never have some 'amazing new deal' of 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200. Nor would they suddenly shut the game down after a bit of short term profit. That part in the user agreement refers to them closing your account for any reason they see fit because that's what you agree to when you 'sign' the agreement. You don't own the game or your sub. It's a license that they can revoke at any time. It says so in the User Agreement. It's not a 'random ToS'. Everyone agrees to the same one when they make their accounts, there's nothing random about that. Please learn what words mean.

Clearly you haven't even read the user agreement, so I won't waste my time arguing with someone that doesn't know what we're even arguing about. In the future though, I recommend reading things in their entirety before you agree to them.

[Goji1639]

You're literally making up a fake scenario to prove your argument. Maybe you should take a class on how to do that better.

SE has never and will never have some 'amazing new deal' of 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200. Nor would they suddenly shut the game down after a bit of short term profit. That part in the user agreement refers to them closing your account for any reason they see fit because that's what you agree to when you 'sign' the agreement. You don't own the game or your sub. It's a license that they can revoke at any time. It says so in the User Agreement. It's not a 'random ToS'. Everyone agrees to the same one when they make their accounts, there's nothing random about that. Please learn what words mean.

Clearly you haven't even read the user agreement, so I won't waste my time arguing with someone that doesn't know what we're even arguing about. In the future though, I recommend reading things in their entirety before you agree to them.

All I'm demonstrating with those scenarios is that ToS doesn't allow SE to do anything illegal, like steal from you.

SE knows this, and that's why they don't just take your money and then decide "Nah, it's cheaper for us if we don't let you play. Thanks for the money, though!" Even if it looks like the ToS is saying they can do that, that's still illegal.

If SE wants to ban you they need an actual reason and supporting evidence. Otherwise if they don't provide what you paid for it's theft. It's a shame so many people don't seem to understand that they actually have rights as a consumer.

[Doozer]

All I'm demonstrating with those scenarios is that ToS doesn't allow SE to do anything illegal, like steal from you.

SE knows this, and that's why they don't just take your money and then decide "Nah, it's cheaper for us if we don't let you play. Thanks for the money, though!" Even if it looks like the ToS is saying they can do that, that's still illegal.

If SE wants to ban you they need an actual reason and supporting evidence. Otherwise if they don't provide what you paid for it's theft. It's a shame so many people don't seem to understand that they actually have rights as a consumer.

Again, did you not read the user agreement? They don't "steal" from you by banning you. You don't get "provided" what you paid for. You don't get an item that you get to keep no matter what. You can have a disc or download of the game all you want, but you are paying for the service, which is a license. They can revoke it at any time. You do not own your service account, it is licensed to you. If you go to a store and buy an item, obviously that store can't just come to your house and take it back. This is not what that is. It is a subscription service.

Also you're literally arguing against yourself at this point. "Here's a fake scenario to prove my point, but also that scenario will never happen, so that's also proof that I'm right". It's very unlikely that SE will just delete someone's account because that makes no sense, but they reserve the right to. That's. what. you. agree. to. Here's the link to the user agreement again in case you missed it and would like to read it. I recommend paying extra attention to the section that says "AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON" as well as "YOUR FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNT AND ANY VIRTUAL GOODS AND CHARACTERS DO NOT HAVE ANY MONETARY VALUE". It's pretty relevant. But what do I know, I didn't take A Class on contract law.

[Goji1639]

Again, did you not read the user agreement? They don't "steal" from you by banning you. You don't get "provided" what you paid for. You don't get an item that you get to keep no matter what. You can have a disc or download of the game all you want, but you are paying for the service, which is a license. They can revoke it at any time. You do not own your service account, it is licensed to you. If you go to a store and buy an item, obviously that store can't just come to your house and take it back. This is not what that is. It is a subscription service.

Also you're literally arguing against yourself at this point. "Here's a fake scenario to prove my point, but also that scenario will never happen, so that's also proof that I'm right". It's very unlikely that SE will just delete someone's account because that makes no sense, but they reserve the right to. That's. what. you. agree. to. Here's the link to the user agreement again in case you missed it and would like to read it. I recommend paying extra attention to the section that says "AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON". It's pretty relevant. But what do I know, I didn't take A Class on contract law.

Writing something illegal down and attaching an "agree" button to it doesn't make it legal. SE added that to their ToS knowing full well it doesn't excuse them from providing the service they promised for the money they received. They know their ability to terminate your access to their service is restricted by contract law, even if they don't spell it out for you in their ToS.

I think I understand why they worded it like that now, though. Apparently there are people who honestly believe by clicking an agree button they're basically waiving all of their rights, so they wouldn't in any way contest being wrongfully banned.

What if somewhere deep in their ToS SE buried a clause that stated they could force you into slave labor? Would you do it? You clicked agree...

[Darkobra]

It's basic contract law, take a class if you're interested. All I'm willing to do is explain it to you in very simple terms.

So, try this. You "agreeing" to something doesn't make it legal. If SE added something to their ToS that stated SE reserves the right to enslave your family, slavery would still be illegal even if you clicked agree.

Eh no, they absolutely cannot ban you for any reason and just walk away with your money; that's very illegal. They have to be able to present a convincing case that your broke their ToS, and that is absolutely why every game like this goes through a time consuming process of accumulating circumstantial evidence before closing an account for botting.

That's why it's not as easy as just sitting in a popular botting area and banning everyone that's "clearly" a bot, as some of you think it should be.

Yes they can. You agreed to the terms. If you don't agree, you void your right to play. It's not stealing. This is a service and they are providing a service. You DO NOT OWN anything. You don't own the game. You've paid for the right to play it. This is not your game. This is not your account. This is your permission to use them.

Also fun little fact for you. I've taken more than a class. I got my degree in music and a large part of it involved contracts. And funnily enough, the ToS was a topic that came up during that degree. That class told us exactly why you're wrong.

And you know what they said next? "You're welcome to challenge it legally. But they have more money than you, more lawyers than you and the law protects them over you. You agree every single time you continue to use their service. You do not own the service. You have permission to use the service. Nothing has been stolen from you."

Of course, your fear and defense over something that shouldn't be affecting you alarms me. This is about bots getting banned. Not about your fear of getting banned and your misconception on a very common law.

[Goji1639]

Yes they can. You agreed to the terms. If you don't agree, you void your right to play. It's not stealing. This is a service and they are providing a service. You DO NOT OWN anything. You don't own the game. You've paid for the right to play it. This is not your game. This is not your account. This is your permission to use them.

Also fun little fact for you. I've taken more than a class. I got my degree in music and a large part of it involved contracts. And funnily enough, the ToS was a topic that came up during that degree. That class told us exactly why you're wrong.

And you know what they said next? "You're welcome to challenge it legally. But they have more money than you, more lawyers than you and the law protects them over you. You agree every single time you continue to use their service. You do not own the service. You have permission to use the service. Nothing has been stolen from you."

Of course, your fear and defense over something that shouldn't be affecting you alarms me. This is about bots getting banned. Not about your fear of getting banned and your misconception on a very common law.

Dude, at least read the topic if you're going to chime in.

I wasn't having a discussion specifically about botting; I'm aware SE can ban people for botting since it's against the ToS. What people are saying is that SE can deny you access to their servers for no reason at all, while keeping your money. That's not true. If I paid the subscription and they denied me access just because they felt like it, I'd have grounds to sue and be legally in the right. Doesn't mean I'd win, because the rich can literally get away with murdering people in our legal system, but SE's actions would have been 100% illegal.

I don't care about bots; I'm just kind of amused that people think you can write literally anything on a form and as long as you throw an "agree" button on it it's perfectly legal. There are restrictions to what you can stipulate on a contract, and giving yourself permission to steal from customers definitely isn't something that would hold up at trial.

[Darkobra]

Dude, at least read the topic if you're going to chime in.

I wasn't having a discussion specifically about botting; I'm aware SE can ban people for botting since it's against the ToS. What people are saying is that SE can deny you access to their servers for no reason at all, while keeping your money. That's not true. If I paid the subscription and they denied me access just because they felt like it, I'd have grounds to sue and be legally in the right. Doesn't mean I'd win, because the rich can literally get away with murdering people in our legal system, but SE's actions would have been 100% illegal.

I don't care about bots; I'm just kind of amused that people think you can write literally anything on a form and as long as you throw an "agree" button on it it's perfectly legal. There are restrictions to what you can stipulate on a contract, and giving yourself permission to steal from customers definitely isn't something that would hold up at trial.

Which one is it? Would it not hold up in trial and you'd win or would you not win?

There's no real reason to continue this as a chain of discussion with you. I'm the one that "took that law class" and got my degree in music, contracts and legal paraphrasing to protect my self-employment. You just keep spewing what you Googled once upon a time. Bet you're one of those people that shout "Freedom of Speech" at everything.

Now, I know you've not taken any classes. I know you don't have a further education. You don't cite sources and you create strawman fallacies to enforce YOUR point. But your opinion isn't fact. It's not law. I also find it amusing that you're arguing with someone that spent four years studying this but you Googled it one time. You have to know how this is going to go for you.

If you got a problem with the ToS, stop playing the game and take it to court. We'll see which one of us is right. The fact that you won't means you know the answer to that already.