Bot issues

[Goji1639]

SE can absolutely ban you for any basically reason, they don't require you to have some legal US based court with a jury of your peers to prove innocence. Yes you may lose hundreds of dollars of digital items but hey, that's the risk you take for online services like this. If SE decided to shut down 14 for good, don't expect a refund. If you find yourself banned for breaking the ToS don't expect a refund.

It's not that they legally require tons of circumstantial evidence, it's that SE wishes to have tons of evidence before taking action.

Eh no, they absolutely cannot ban you for any reason and just walk away with your money; that's very illegal. They have to be able to present a convincing case that your broke their ToS, and that is absolutely why every game like this goes through a time consuming process of accumulating circumstantial evidence before closing an account for botting.

That's why it's not as easy as just sitting in a popular botting area and banning everyone that's "clearly" a bot, as some of you think it should be.

[Doozer]

Eh no, they absolutely cannot ban you for any reason and just walk away with your money; that's very illegal.

Actually, yes they can. In the user agreement (linked here), it states:

SQUARE ENIX MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNTS, CHARACTERS, VIRTUAL GOODS, OR THE SERVICE ALTOGETHER, AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY TO YOU

(Bolded for emphasis)

You agree to the user agreement and you agree to whatever is in it. That's how it works. They can delete your account just for fun and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Goji1639]

Actually, yes they can. In the user agreement (linked here), it states:



(Bolded for emphasis)

You agree to the user agreement and you agree to whatever is in it. That's how it works. They can delete your account just for fun and there's nothing you can do about it.

There are regulations and consumer protections that prevent companies from stealing from their customers. If there weren't SE could add "you agree to have your personal information sold to criminals" to page 110 of their ToS and magically not be liable for their criminal actions. That's not how it works.

I can't create a service, take your money, and then prevent you from accessing the service simply because I feel like it. That's incredibly illegal, and no matter what the ToS says SE can't do that. If they did they would be facing a massive class action lawsuit and that ToS would not hold up. SE does their due diligence because they have to.

That clause in their ToS is likely meant to cover the eventuality that their servers may shut down one day. That's different.

[Doozer]

No, that's not how it works. There are regulations and consumer protections that prevent companies from stealing from their customers. If there weren't SE could add "you agree to have you personal information sold to criminals" to page 110 of their ToS and magically not be liable for their criminal actions.

I can't create a service, take your money, and then prevent you from accessing the service simply because I feel like it. That's incredibly illegal, and no matter what the ToS says SE can't do that. If they did they would be facing a massive class action lawsuit and that ToS would not hold up. SE does their due diligence because they have to.

That clause in their ToS is likely meant to cover the eventuality that their servers may shut down one day. That's different.

Actually they can just do that. They're a private company, and you agree to their terms when you create your account. You can't just say "that's different, that's not how it works" and it will be so. They reserve the right to do anything to your account at any time, and you agreed to that because you're here posting. You can't just call the police because you got banned in a video game and don't know why.

But if I'm wrong, please direct me to a website where I can read about this law you say they would be breaking. Though it's important to know that SE does originate in Japan and I'm not 100% sure how laws relating to those things work internationally. So I understand if you're unable to produce that for me.

[Goji1639]

Actually they can just do that. They're a private company, and you agree to their terms when you create your account. You can't just say "that's different, that's not how it works" and it will be so. They reserve the right to do anything to your account at any time, and you agreed to that because you're here posting. You can't just call the police because you got banned in a video game and don't know why.

But if I'm wrong, please direct me to a website where I can read about this law you say they would be breaking. Though it's important to know that SE does originate in Japan and I'm not 100% sure how laws relating to those things work internationally. So I understand if you're unable to produce that for me.

It's basic contract law, take a class if you're interested. All I'm willing to do is explain it to you in very simple terms.

So, try this. You "agreeing" to something doesn't make it legal. If SE added something to their ToS that stated SE reserves the right to enslave your family, slavery would still be illegal even if you clicked agree.

I'll give you an example that might be a little more pertinent. Pretend SE had a big new promotion...

SE: "Amazing new deal: 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200!!"

*2 weeks later after... let's say... $15 million in revenue from the new deal*

SE: "Game servers are shutting down forever. No refunds for the 'Amazing new deal.' lolololololololbye."

SE would definitely face a class action lawsuit, and if they showed up to court with the little "we're allowed to steal from our customers" clause in their ToS, they'd be laughed out. SE knows what they can and can't do in terms of basically stealing money for digital property, which is why they're diligent in evidencing their bans. It's why ALL companies are diligent.

You have basic rights and protections as a consumer that can't be taken away from you, even if you click "agree" on a random ToS that's worded in a way that looks like they could be taken away from you. SE can't take your money then refuse to provide the service you paid for unless they have a good, strongly evidenced, legally sound reason for doing so.

[Doozer]

It's basic contract law, take a class if you're interested. All I'm willing to do is explain it to you in very simple terms.

So, try this. You "agreeing" to something doesn't make it legal. If SE added something to their ToS that stated SE reserves the right to enslave your family, slavery would still be illegal even if you clicked agree.

I'll give you an example that might be a little more pertinent. Pretend SE had a big new promotion...

SE: "Amazing new deal: 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200!!"

*2 weeks later after... let's say... $15 million in revenue from the new deal*

SE: "Game servers are shutting down forever. No refunds for the 'Amazing new deal.' lolololololololbye."

SE would definitely face a class action lawsuit, and if they showed up to court with the little "we're allowed to steal from our customers" clause in their ToS, they'd be laughed out. SE knows what they can and can't do in terms of basically stealing money for digital property, which is why they're diligent in evidencing their bans. It's why ALL companies are diligent.

You have basic rights and protections as a consumer that can't be taken away from you, even if you click "agree" on a random ToS that's worded in a way that looks like they could be taken away from you. SE can't take your money then refuse to provide the service you paid for unless they have a good, strongly evidenced, legally sound reason for doing so.

You're literally making up a fake scenario to prove your argument. Maybe you should take a class on how to do that better.

SE has never and will never have some 'amazing new deal' of 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200. Nor would they suddenly shut the game down after a bit of short term profit. That part in the user agreement refers to them closing your account for any reason they see fit because that's what you agree to when you 'sign' the agreement. You don't own the game or your sub. It's a license that they can revoke at any time. It says so in the User Agreement. It's not a 'random ToS'. Everyone agrees to the same one when they make their accounts, there's nothing random about that. Please learn what words mean.

Clearly you haven't even read the user agreement, so I won't waste my time arguing with someone that doesn't know what we're even arguing about. In the future though, I recommend reading things in their entirety before you agree to them.

[Goji1639]

You're literally making up a fake scenario to prove your argument. Maybe you should take a class on how to do that better.

SE has never and will never have some 'amazing new deal' of 3 years worth of subscription and 7 retainers for $200. Nor would they suddenly shut the game down after a bit of short term profit. That part in the user agreement refers to them closing your account for any reason they see fit because that's what you agree to when you 'sign' the agreement. You don't own the game or your sub. It's a license that they can revoke at any time. It says so in the User Agreement. It's not a 'random ToS'. Everyone agrees to the same one when they make their accounts, there's nothing random about that. Please learn what words mean.

Clearly you haven't even read the user agreement, so I won't waste my time arguing with someone that doesn't know what we're even arguing about. In the future though, I recommend reading things in their entirety before you agree to them.

All I'm demonstrating with those scenarios is that ToS doesn't allow SE to do anything illegal, like steal from you.

SE knows this, and that's why they don't just take your money and then decide "Nah, it's cheaper for us if we don't let you play. Thanks for the money, though!" Even if it looks like the ToS is saying they can do that, that's still illegal.

If SE wants to ban you they need an actual reason and supporting evidence. Otherwise if they don't provide what you paid for it's theft. It's a shame so many people don't seem to understand that they actually have rights as a consumer.

[Darkobra]

It's basic contract law, take a class if you're interested. All I'm willing to do is explain it to you in very simple terms.

So, try this. You "agreeing" to something doesn't make it legal. If SE added something to their ToS that stated SE reserves the right to enslave your family, slavery would still be illegal even if you clicked agree.

Eh no, they absolutely cannot ban you for any reason and just walk away with your money; that's very illegal. They have to be able to present a convincing case that your broke their ToS, and that is absolutely why every game like this goes through a time consuming process of accumulating circumstantial evidence before closing an account for botting.

That's why it's not as easy as just sitting in a popular botting area and banning everyone that's "clearly" a bot, as some of you think it should be.

Yes they can. You agreed to the terms. If you don't agree, you void your right to play. It's not stealing. This is a service and they are providing a service. You DO NOT OWN anything. You don't own the game. You've paid for the right to play it. This is not your game. This is not your account. This is your permission to use them.

Also fun little fact for you. I've taken more than a class. I got my degree in music and a large part of it involved contracts. And funnily enough, the ToS was a topic that came up during that degree. That class told us exactly why you're wrong.

And you know what they said next? "You're welcome to challenge it legally. But they have more money than you, more lawyers than you and the law protects them over you. You agree every single time you continue to use their service. You do not own the service. You have permission to use the service. Nothing has been stolen from you."

Of course, your fear and defense over something that shouldn't be affecting you alarms me. This is about bots getting banned. Not about your fear of getting banned and your misconception on a very common law.

[Goji1639]

Yes they can. You agreed to the terms. If you don't agree, you void your right to play. It's not stealing. This is a service and they are providing a service. You DO NOT OWN anything. You don't own the game. You've paid for the right to play it. This is not your game. This is not your account. This is your permission to use them.

Also fun little fact for you. I've taken more than a class. I got my degree in music and a large part of it involved contracts. And funnily enough, the ToS was a topic that came up during that degree. That class told us exactly why you're wrong.

And you know what they said next? "You're welcome to challenge it legally. But they have more money than you, more lawyers than you and the law protects them over you. You agree every single time you continue to use their service. You do not own the service. You have permission to use the service. Nothing has been stolen from you."

Of course, your fear and defense over something that shouldn't be affecting you alarms me. This is about bots getting banned. Not about your fear of getting banned and your misconception on a very common law.

Dude, at least read the topic if you're going to chime in.

I wasn't having a discussion specifically about botting; I'm aware SE can ban people for botting since it's against the ToS. What people are saying is that SE can deny you access to their servers for no reason at all, while keeping your money. That's not true. If I paid the subscription and they denied me access just because they felt like it, I'd have grounds to sue and be legally in the right. Doesn't mean I'd win, because the rich can literally get away with murdering people in our legal system, but SE's actions would have been 100% illegal.

I don't care about bots; I'm just kind of amused that people think you can write literally anything on a form and as long as you throw an "agree" button on it it's perfectly legal. There are restrictions to what you can stipulate on a contract, and giving yourself permission to steal from customers definitely isn't something that would hold up at trial.

[Doozer]

Yes they can. You agreed to the terms. If you don't agree, you void your right to play. It's not stealing. This is a service and they are providing a service. You DO NOT OWN anything. You don't own the game. You've paid for the right to play it. This is not your game. This is not your account. This is your permission to use them.

Also fun little fact for you. I've taken more than a class. I got my degree in music and a large part of it involved contracts. And funnily enough, the ToS was a topic that came up during that degree. That class told us exactly why you're wrong.

And you know what they said next? "You're welcome to challenge it legally. But they have more money than you, more lawyers than you and the law protects them over you. You agree every single time you continue to use their service. You do not own the service. You have permission to use the service. Nothing has been stolen from you."

Of course, your fear and defense over something that shouldn't be affecting you alarms me. This is about bots getting banned. Not about your fear of getting banned and your misconception on a very common law.

It's reassuring to know that someone with much more formal education than me comes to generally the same conclusion.

I'll be the first to say I'm not an expert on anything, but it also doesn't take an expert to be able to understand what the user agreement says. I think it's meant to be presented, at the very least, in a way that most people can read and understand it. So it's kind of frustrating to be told over and over that I obviously just don't get it when it certainly makes sense to me.

(No offence to you of course, I'm definitely not saying something like "oh even I know that" or anything.)