Hybrid Classes/Jobs

[Seraphor]

Stopped reading after "limited job". I don't want to be mean, but this game needs serious meaty content and well designed jobs, and ShB lacks both. So far the only limited job, Blue Mage, is a pure waste of budget. And the funniest thing is its not properly designed. Yoshi said its going to be solo job, but you need someone to carry you anyway.

Yeah I guess we're not allowed to hope for new things, gotta be the same things.
(And ShB lacks both? The hell are you smoking)

Blue Mage is flawed, but it's biggest issue is the lack of content and incentive to run that content.
Adding more limited jobs will necessitate expanding that content.

[ReiMakoto]

Yeah I guess we're not allowed to hope for new things, gotta be the same things.
(And ShB lacks both? The hell are you smoking)

Blue Mage is flawed, but it's biggest issue is the lack of content and incentive to run that content.
Adding more limited jobs will necessitate expanding that content.

Adding more without a signficant overhaul will cause the content to cannibalize itself. We already get a blu update maybe once a year, once the update is split across 2 jobs something will have to give. Theres also the issue with sameyness, if it necessitates that BLU has to be able to play with other limited jobs, they will all end up functionally the same, which again means further rescource investment making sure both are balanced and they'll both be kinda flat to play if they can both "do everything". Not even mentioning the fact it has the potential to split an already small playerbase if a new limited job gets its own set of achievements/content.

[Caselia]

I don't like Limited Jobs at all, but this job could never exist in XIV as anything but a Limited Job and it might be the only way I'd ever get a magic tank. The One Limited Job to rule them all...

*snip*

I'd actually love Onion Knight as a limited tank job.
I doubt it could slot any abilities you want from the entire game, but would rather have it's own very large set of skills, that you unlock by levelling other jobs (up to a max of level 50).

For example, getting WHM to level 30 would unlock Cure, level 40 would unlock Cure III and level 50 would unlock Benediction.
While leveling SCH to 30/40/50 would give you Bio, Bane and Sacred Soil.
AST would give you Diurnal Stance, Aspected Benefic and Aspected Helios.
Having any healer at level 30 would unlock Esuna, and any healer to level 50 would unlock Raise.
So by leveling all three healers you could effectively build a complete healer kit.

*snip*

Then like Blue Mage you can slot in up to 25 of these cross-class abilities.

So, what you're essentially asking for is the Armory System from 1.0 that was gutted in ARR then eventually phased out. The OP is asking for something more unique; but if I understand correctly from both of your post you want 1.0 class design.

[Shougun]

So, what you're essentially asking for is the Armory System from 1.0 that was gutted in ARR then eventually phased out. The OP is asking for something more unique; but if I understand correctly from both of your post you want 1.0 class design.

I think we were pretty similar, with Rongway adding some neat FFXV Noctis weapon like vibes and detailed rules. Seraphor too, adding some detailed rules. Also all for probably for similar reason but not sure, at least personally, suggested the 1.0 concept as it were, because it sounded unlikely to me that they'd release a bunch of individual unique hybrids of their current jobs (especially as it would open up a factorial of requests of which jobs would combine with what into a new job). That however, one hybrid to rule them all was quite a bit more likely I imagined and was still in spirit what was requested (hybrid job system).


That isn't to say a more custom tailored hybrid concept couldn't be fun, primal bullet gun blade katana sounds fun, just thought if they wanted hybrid concepts specifically that something like that could be well represented in such a job. As if they were going to make something unique that it would probably not be a hybrid and more likely something entirely self themed- like beastmaster or puppet master and not based on if two jobs were combined. Also suggested onion knight because I thought unlike losing something unique to the limited job system that creating something known to be weird would be a smoother and easier experience (like how some may feel lost with blue mage). If his primal gun blade katana job ended up having awesome story and visuals and playing interestingly it would be sad to some people it couldn't be a main job- where onion knight just sort of glides into limited job life as that's pretty much his life in general lol. Maybe the original limited job XD.


So yes I got what they meant, and I imagine others did too, I thought it was a potentially interesting idea too, but then suggested something to fit into limited framework that I'd think is less sad to lose to main content and more likely to be done as well. Nothing wrong to continue liking the more specifically tailored hybrid of course .

[Seraphor]

Adding more without a signficant overhaul will cause the content to cannibalize itself. We already get a blu update maybe once a year, once the update is split across 2 jobs something will have to give. Theres also the issue with sameyness, if it necessitates that BLU has to be able to play with other limited jobs, they will all end up functionally the same, which again means further rescource investment making sure both are balanced and they'll both be kinda flat to play if they can both "do everything". Not even mentioning the fact it has the potential to split an already small playerbase if a new limited job gets its own set of achievements/content.

If they use the same content, then that's consolidating resources and expanding the playerbase of that content.
For example, if the Masked Carnivale stages 61-70 can be played as BLU and the next limited job, with seperate achievements and rewards, that's more longevity for the same content.
The fact that any new limited jobs need to be balanced against BLU is no more of a problem than the fact that the other 17 combat jobs have to be balanced with each other.

Remember, this is still side content.
Was Chocobo Racing a waste of resources?
What about Lord of Vermillion, Diadem, Ocean Fishing, Ishgard restoration?
Is everything you don't personally play a waste of resources?

There are a bunch of job concepts that are never going to make the cut as full jobs, Onion Knight, Mime, Beast Tamer and Puppetmaster are some of those non-viable jobs that could work as limited jobs.
Why should we get more very very niche side content like Mahjong or... Blitzball, when we could instead get combat related side content like Blue Mage?
I'd much rather have combat related side content, than them "waste" resources on more minigames like Blitzball, but to each their own.

Blue Mage I admit could have made it as a full job, but it didn't. Besides, we're not likely to get more than just one more caster DPS in the games lifetime, and there's already calls for Geomancer, Time Mage, Onmyoji/Oracle, Necromancer... so only one of those is going to make the cut anyway. Adding BLU to that competition wouldn't have helped much and it's aesthetic is too similar to Red Mage anyway.

[ReiMakoto]

If they use the same content, then that's consolidating resources and expanding the playerbase of that content.
For example, if the Masked Carnivale stages 61-70 can be played as BLU and the next limited job, with seperate achievements and rewards, that's more longevity for the same content.
The fact that any new limited jobs need to be balanced against BLU is no more of a problem than the fact that the other 17 combat jobs have to be balanced with each other.

Remember, this is still side content.
Was Chocobo Racing a waste of resources?
What about Lord of Vermillion, Diadem, Ocean Fishing, Ishgard restoration?
Is everything you don't personally play a waste of resources?

There are a bunch of job concepts that are never going to make the cut as full jobs, Onion Knight, Mime, Beast Tamer and Puppetmaster are some of those non-viable jobs that could work as limited jobs.
Why should we get more very very niche side content like Mahjong or... Blitzball, when we could instead get combat related side content like Blue Mage?
I'd much rather have combat related side content, than them "waste" resources on more minigames like Blitzball, but to each their own.

Blue Mage I admit could have made it as a full job, but it didn't. Besides, we're not likely to get more than just one more caster DPS in the games lifetime, and there's already calls for Geomancer, Time Mage, Onmyoji/Oracle, Necromancer... so only one of those is going to make the cut anyway. Adding BLU to that competition wouldn't have helped much and it's aesthetic is too similar to Red Mage anyway.

Youve actually side stepped my point here, plus you did a very good job of straw manning me. I never said it was a waste of reacources, dont put words in my mouth, its poor practice and makes you look incredibly petty.

Youve basically aggreed with my point tho, balancing any new limited job against blu is the same effort as balancing a regular job, and this IS side content. One person is in charge of limited jobs over there, the atma questline dude, so developing for 2 limited jobs requires either a boost in dev rescources, or less content for both. It doesnt matter that both would have carnival and share duty logs, it took then a year for 30 ish new spells and 5 carnival stages, now youre adding in a new jobs amount of spells and balancing into the SIDE CONTENT budget. The inherent fact it is side content means its more prone to cannibilasiation that mainline content is.

Edit: this is not even including design space cannibilisation either, designing carnival/raids so they can be cleared by all blu, all other limited job or a mix means theyll likely all occupy the same design space leading to a homogenised kit on top of the fact that limited jobs so far have less in depth rotations.

Final note if you think BLU and RDM have similar aesthetic/ purpose i encourage you to play any mainline title that contains both like ff5 or tactics advanced or 11 or explorers, list goes on, theyre quite different

[ItMe]

balancing any new limited job against blu is the same effort as balancing a regular job

That's not inherently true.
They could keep the limited jobs segregated even from each other. BLU already kinda lives in its own little world, and new limited jobs could (and perhaps should) be given their own "space" too.

[Rongway]

So, what you're essentially asking for is the Armory System from 1.0 that was gutted in ARR then eventually phased out. The OP is asking for something more unique; but if I understand correctly from both of your post you want 1.0 class design.

That's not where I was going, per se; but in case people are thinking that, I guess it's worth clarifying that I think this sort of thing would work as a limited job because then leveling other jobs to use their actions and traits on Freelancer would be optional. That's very different from, say, 2.0~3.56 where playing multiple jobs was, practically speaking, required because of actions like Quelling Strikes and Provoke, or to unlock jobs (the worst offender probably being PLD because it required levels in CNJ just to unlock it, even if you weren't ever going to use any of the CNJ spells).

I don't want people running around with incomplete actions sets if I'm going to be matched with them in DF--this is already at least a bit of a problem now, as I've seen BLMs in Lv70+ dungeons who don't even have Freeze and Blizzard III on at least three occasions. So a Freelancing system would necessarily have to be Limited.

[Jkap_Goat]

Stopped reading after "limited job". I don't want to be mean, but this game needs serious meaty content and well designed jobs, and ShB lacks both. So far the only limited job, Blue Mage, is a pure waste of budget. And the funniest thing is its not properly designed. Yoshi said its going to be solo job, but you need someone to carry you anyway.

i have to disagree with you, BLU has been the most fun i have had in Shadowbringers as a whole, Because it doesn't fall into the Holy Boring Trinity system XIV has, Blue mage can and do pretty much everything ,plus its notthing like the "Trinity" jobs, its gimmicky, has very unique actions like "white wind" and its own LB3 tank move that can mitigate 90% of damage "Diamond Back".

what's boring is whole limited Trinity system yes I understand that Final Fantasy XIV works at way but in some Final Fantasy games in general ,there are some jobs that are hybrid and that just makes it more fun in my opinion.

some jobs have to be limited like PuppetMaster Or Beastmasters which I cannot wait for and im very excited.


just look at red mage, a job to know white and black magic arts but not as good as a Black and White mage, only know two healing spells ( vercure and verraise) IMO, red mage is a hybrid and should feel like one , yet they are the weakest incarnation in the final fantasy series, you cant deny that.a

Limited jobs brings a fresh enjoyment to stale jobs that are the holy Trinity

[Shougun]

Limited jobs brings a fresh enjoyment to stale jobs that are the holy Trinity

It literally supports the holy trinity through one of it's own actions though. . . Also diamond back is not as good as a tank LB since tank LBs don't stun you for 10 seconds.

Man. . lol. Blue gets me so salty, even people who like it I can't help but think "should have been better". At least with housing I feel like it makes sense how we got here with the whole 1.0 rush into 2.0, 'it'll be fine just for FC' 'oh my god our game is so popular' (still think it's not best suited for the type of game FFXIV is, and that even people who like having neighbors could have been satisfied with instanced neighbors, most of them at least).

I mean I get perhaps that it's different so that's nice, sometimes different is all people really needed. . but I still find it hard to actually work through the logic as a set of rules (not opinions) and end with the result "nice job" (building a set of rules from desires/statements and then following those through- many stemming from SE's initial directives which seem to only be partially true/followed). The job literally supports the holy trinity through mimicry, a system you have to use if you want to do the PF content well- it's gimmicks are so short too, like spamming missile as peak ground breaking gimmick gameplay. Made worse if people are in it for the gimmicks, and making one of the reasons they told us blue had to be this way, by the fact they've nerfed/removed some of the gimmicks of blue mage spells for the sake of PF.

SE: we're going to make blue a real blue, by not. . We've decided to not actually do the real versions of spells like fire angon, or angel whisper, we need to balance it even though we said we're not making to a normal job because of balance. Me: 11/10 take all my salt. Not that I even believe the purpose should be to make 1:1 monster spells, I think fun should have been #1 priority, especially if you were going to say 'who cares about balance' route to excuse not spending full resources to avoid it being a real job, and in that I feel they didn't do as good as they could have.

Also red mage is great, going to deny that red mage is weakest I would argue in parallel at least to some variants (has support, offense, both black and white magic, melee, and fast casting). Loads of people feel greatly empowered by using their substantial vercure potency or chain raising, and the damage while not the highest is entirely functional for all content. They're also pretty great at soloing which carries some of their FFXI vibes forward for those who played that one. Of course it lost a load of support skills in comparison to that other game, so that might have felt bad, but having played both and not particularly being a crazy red mage fan I think FFXIV's is quite good and fun.

I note the fan boy part because sometimes your opinion can shift and become more particular if you're a fan, like I 'was' a fan of blue mage, I really dislike what happened here. In the sense that under SE's reasons I think they didn't do a great job, in most other player's reasons I don't think it was that great, and in my own especially. Adding the word reason and not opinion because if someone says "I like it for X over Y" you can then use that logical basis and compare- I often find that either the logic is inconsistently applied and not really either solid or at least not the root actual logic that hides beneath (I believe people if they say they like it but sometimes the reasons seem flawed, and really what most often seems to be the root and amount to was 'it was different' which is not a high bar), or while I can see why someone might like it I can also feel it hardly did it in a stellar way ("I wanted more PF content and a reason to do old stuff", sure- I believe they could have done that better, both with or without having to use blue). I feel bad sometimes talking about blue mage, hopefully if anything thing gets translated it gets smoothed out, I've no intention to hurt who ever made the job.. but my disappoint of the job from every angle I look at it is strong. To the point I've leveled and enjoyed every job in FFXIV except blue mage, one of the few jobs I was actually looking forward to, and which is one of the easiest to level, and I still feel like 'why bother, it's just not that good- maybe when I'm bored I'll do it for the achievement points'.