We really need to talk about Living Dead

[Chrono_Rising]

I'm not 'leaving out' Equil, I was comparing NF to TBN so those were the two abilities that I was primarily looking at. That and, well, let's be honest here; the majority of the time you're using Equil (even if accompanied by ToB) you're popping it praying or it to crit. I dunno, using that move in particular and seeing it not crit just feels absolutely awful just because of the fact that it's on a 60-90s CD, depending on your damage intake and whether or not you decide to pair it with ToB.

Fair enough on comparing things one on one, but my point still stands. TBN on its own is powerful, but like you've said before, its how the whole kit comes together. Equilibrium is up about as often as a dark knight would optimally want to use TBN, but it is 10k weaker. Whether you delete the damage or just heal the damage makes no real practical difference.

Does TBN outshine equilibrium on its own?

Yes.

Does TBN outshine Nascent Flash on its own?

Yes.

Does TBN outshine ToB on its own?

Yes.

Does TBN outshine all of these taken together? My answer here would be no. In fact I think the weaker statement: "Does TBN outshine Nascent Flash and Equilibrium together" is also a no. Of course we could put TBN up every 15 seconds like clock work, but I don't honestly think you can pop it that often through autos alone, I usually can only pop it for a raidwide + 2 autos, which means that we could block more damage but at a major dps loss.

The relevance is that we previously disagreed that Living Dead could or could not use some light adjustments on healing requirements based on the power of the defensive kit. But I don't honestly feel that the defensive kit is actually strong enough to support that statement. Even if you look at the "least defensive" tank, GNB, its kit is fairly close in damage deletion power.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Fair enough on comparing things one on one, but my point still stands. TBN on its own is powerful, but like you've said before, its how the whole kit comes together. Equilibrium is up about as often as a dark knight would optimally want to use TBN, but it is 10k weaker. Whether you delete the damage or just heal the damage makes no real practical difference.

Does TBN outshine equilibrium on its own?

Yes.

Does TBN outshine Nascent Flash on its own?

Yes.

Does TBN outshine ToB on its own?

Yes.

Does TBN outshine all of these taken together? My answer here would be no. In fact I think the weaker statement: "Does TBN outshine Nascent Flash and Equilibrium together" is also a no. Of course we could put TBN up every 15 seconds like clock work, but I don't honestly think you can pop it that often through autos alone, I usually can only pop it for a raidwide + 2 autos, which means that we could block more damage but at a major dps loss.

The relevance is that we previously disagreed that Living Dead could or could not use some light adjustments on healing requirements based on the power of the defensive kit. But I don't honestly feel that the defensive kit is actually strong enough to support that statement. Even if you look at the "least defensive" tank, GNB, its kit is fairly close in damage deletion power.

I can almost 100% guarantee that the current savage tier will break TBN with 2 autos. I'm taking a break from this tier so I can't give boss auto numbers, but Titan last tier autoed for 33k and TBN shielded for 38k at the time, so the same logically should hold true now. As for commenting on Equilibrium in particular, it's a weird skill; just because the variance for how much it can heal for is so huge. Popped alone and non-crit, 30k. Crit with ToB, like 62k. So it not critting is just depressing. As for what's better, I don't think it's a completely straightforward topic. For one thing, comparing TBN against NF, ToB, & Equil all combined just seems more than a little bit of an unfair matchup. Strong as any cooldown may be, it's bound to lose out when put in a competition against three all together, and that's another reason I think it's only proper to pit TBN against NF individually.

I will concede the point about both WAR and DRK having to lose some optimal DPS in order to get multiple uses of each of their respective CDs (or in WAR's case, multiple powerful uses). Although, on that point it should be noted that WAR does lose out slightly worse in that regard if we're comparing the loss 1:1, as DRK loses a 500p Edge under raid buffs while WAR loses a 920p IC under the same, which is a fairly significant potency difference. Now, I've never analyzed DRK's damage profile in detail so I can't say anything on that regard, but I have for WAR and Inner Chaos makes up around 17%-20% of WAR's total damage output over a fight.

[DWolfwood]

I can almost 100% guarantee that the current savage tier will break TBN with 2 autos...

It doesn't. Not unless you're talking with vuln stacks.

Just came back a couple weeks ago, but noticed even on Shiva you have to ensure you'll get hit by more than just autos.

[Lucy_Pyre]

It doesn't. Not unless you're talking with vuln stacks.

Just came back a couple weeks ago, but noticed even on Shiva you have to ensure you'll get hit by more than just autos.

Yeah unless they straight up reduced boss auto attack damage I'm calling BS on this claim. One auto attack from Titan savage pre-5.2 would alone nearly break TBN, while the second hit would break it entirely. Seeing as Titan auto attacked for 33k, if I had to put a guess to it I would assume Shiva autos for somewhere in the 36k-39k range. That means that the only possible way TBN isn't breaking to two auto attacks is if the boss straight up stops autoing after the first hit in order to cast something.

Edit: Legit just watched a bit of an E8S kill video and Shiva autos for around 34-36k. So no, two auto attacks will 100% break TBN.

[Chrono_Rising]

Yeah unless they straight up reduced boss auto attack damage I'm calling BS on this claim. One auto attack from Titan savage pre-5.2 would alone nearly break TBN, while the second hit would break it entirely. Seeing as Titan auto attacked for 33k, if I had to put a guess to it I would assume Shiva autos for somewhere in the 36k-39k range. That means that the only possible way TBN isn't breaking to two auto attacks is if the boss straight up stops autoing after the first hit in order to cast something.

Edit: Legit just watched a bit of an E8S kill video and Shiva autos for around 34-36k. So no, two auto attacks will 100% break TBN.

While Shiva will break it, e5s averages 21k, just short of breaking for 2, e6s does between 15 and 18k, very short of breaking. E7s does enough auto damage, but the boss spends so much time channeling/casting most autos are more than 7 seconds apart. So in 3/4 TBN won't break.

As for commenting on Equilibrium in particular, it's a weird skill; just because the variance for how much it can heal for is so huge. Popped alone and non-crit, 30k. Crit with ToB, like 62k. So it not critting is just depressing. As for what's better, I don't think it's a completely straightforward topic. For one thing, comparing TBN against NF, ToB, & Equil all combined just seems more than a little bit of an unfair matchup. Strong as any cooldown may be, it's bound to lose out when put in a competition against three all together, and that's another reason I think it's only proper to pit TBN against NF individually.

Variance aside, I'm of the camp that would just plan for it to be 32k, but leave head space in case it crits. The reason why you need to compare TBN to three different skills is that TBN is the catch all of mitigation. Abyssal Drain is a damage skill that needs to be used at the same time in your rotation for damage, the heal isn't anything to write home for against single target bosses (granted dungeon pulls are another story). Dark mind is useful but only for magic. More than half the busters the past two tiers were physical, meaning dark mind is only useful less than half the time. TBN has to make up for not having skills like Aurora Camo and heart of stone or ToB Nascent Flash Equilibrium, but also cannot be too strong because we also have dark mind.

TLDR; TBN is a catch all - overpowered when compared in isolation of kits; balanced when compared to entire kits. The odd one out is paladin's kit which is kinda terrible for when you have aggro.

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

Speaking just from last tier, there were uses in each and every fight where Dark Mind could be used; tank lasers in E1S, Shadowflame in E2S, Depending on your tank comp and invuln use order you could use Dark Mind on the 3rd buster in E3S if you had to do a tank swap, as well as the mini-busters during Stormy Horizon, and it could also be used on the Dual Earthen Fists double buster in E4S (not Megalith, the buster that happens on each tank right before Megalith's stack buster). So, I think it's fair to say that Dark Mind has enough uses to count for its own position. If you really want to compare TBN to ToB, Equil, and NF, then fine. That said, however, I still think that comparing it against them more than just one at a time isn't a fair comparison to make.

[Chrono_Rising]

Speaking just from last tier, there were uses in each and every fight where Dark Mind could be used; tank lasers in E1S, Shadowflame in E2S, Depending on your tank comp and invuln use order you could use Dark Mind on the 3rd buster in E3S if you had to do a tank swap, as well as the mini-busters during Stormy Horizon, and it could also be used on the Dual Earthen Fists double buster in E4S (not Megalith, the buster that happens on each tank right before Megalith's stack buster). So, I think it's fair to say that Dark Mind has enough uses to count for its own position.

E1s: Heavens Sunder and Mana Slice (add cleave) were physical. The dot buster was magical.

E2s: Everything was magical.

E3s: Busters were magical, but were spaced far enough apart that you could invuln all but 1 of them in every comp.

E4s: Stone Crusher and Megalith were physical. Earthen Anguish was magical.

That's 4 magical busters, and 4 physical busters. 50% even. Dark mind is great when you can use it, and useless when you cannot. However, that said I do agree most fights have something you can use dark mind on. My point is mainly that half of the time you are using it, it is on a lower impact hit like a raid wide aoe.

If you really want to compare TBN to ToB, Equil, and NF, then fine. That said, however, I still think that comparing it against them more than just one at a time isn't a fair comparison to make.

To be completely fair, we would need to compare dark mind + TBN to all three skills.

Lets agree on a three minute interval since this is a reset of the warrior rotation that also lined up with the reset of TBN and Dark Mind. That gives us 3 uses of equilibrium, 2 uses of ToB, and up to about 6 uses of nascent flash, and also 3 dark mind uses, and 4 TBNs.

Equilibrium: 96k minimum healed, (up to 144k maximum)
ToB: 68.8k healed (not including bonus healing received or potential interaction with Equilibrium)

At minimum without including up to 6 Nascent Flash we have healed 164.8k.

As far as I’m aware optimal warrior play has you using two infuriates in trick attack along with a fell cleave. IC for me hits 66k on average, fell cleave hits 19k. In three hits you can do 151k damage or restore 75.5 HP. Since we can do this twice in three minutes that ends up being 151 hp restored.

During this time we also have an IR window where fell cleave will hit for around 40k. 3 hits will do 120k (if I’m clever I’ll also fit upheaval and onslaught into this for an extra 30k and 6k respectively) doings 156k damage. This allows me to restore 78k HP. At the start of the 3 minutes you can squeeze out an additional 91k from IC into IR with upheaval and onslaught, while likely wasted in the openner it isn't wasted at 3 minute marks.


Nascent Flash: 320k HP restored in the first three minutes (while only using 4 of these intervals to get this number I think we agreed that you could squeeze out 30k in healing from non burst Nascent flashes for an extra 60k restored).

Which just goes to show you why you need to do the math. Optimal use of TBN to optimal use of Nascent flash and Nascent flash turns out blowing TBN out of the water. That said, for warrior to use these heals effectively you do need to do some planning with your healers to keep you healthy enough to survive to those windows.

In a three minute interval I can therefore restore up to 485K on the low end, and up to 545k on the high end (without factoring in crit luck), on warrior while playing optimally the entire time. Warrior rotation is on a 3 minute reset time hence why I picked it.

Playing optimally on dark knight I can probably get off 4 TBN’s in this period without a serious loss. Thats 172k damage deleted.

Thats a difference of 313k HP deleted/restored, at minimum in optimal play. For Dark Mind to make up this difference in that three minute interval I would need to take 1,565,000 damage in three 10 second intervals. That doesn’t happen. If I wanted to make this up with TBNs I would need to push out 11 of them, which is about 4 per minute, at minimum this pushes 3 EoS (1500 potency) out of buff windows per minute, and it still comes up short. In most fights I don’t think you can pop TBN that often but lets leave that where it is.

To hit the high end of what warrior does I would need to pop 13 TBNs in 3 minutes, which is a TBN every 15 seconds starting with a TBN on pull I'm positive that is impossible, I think the maximum number of tbns in 3 minutes is 12 regardless, to pop that often, that leaves 1500 potency out side of buff windows per minute (IC is about 1425 potency per IC left out of a buff window when factoring in crit direct hit and average GCD). And to be super clear I think two of those 4 TBN's won't pop meaning we just straight up delete 1k potency/minute from our rotation.


TLDR; Warrior can heal between 485k to 545k while playing optimally, but takes planning with healers. Dark Knight can shield about 172k while playing optimally.

[OdinelStarrei]

It doesn't. Not unless you're talking with vuln stacks.

Just came back a couple weeks ago, but noticed even on Shiva you have to ensure you'll get hit by more than just autos.

Yeah unless they straight up reduced boss auto attack damage I'm calling BS on this claim. One auto attack from Titan savage pre-5.2 would alone nearly break TBN, while the second hit would break it entirely. Seeing as Titan auto attacked for 33k, if I had to put a guess to it I would assume Shiva autos for somewhere in the 36k-39k range. That means that the only possible way TBN isn't breaking to two auto attacks is if the boss straight up stops autoing after the first hit in order to cast something.

Edit: Legit just watched a bit of an E8S kill video and Shiva autos for around 34-36k. So no, two auto attacks will 100% break TBN.

Just gonna drop in here and elaborate on the TBN status this tier. You're both right.

At i500 BiS with 177K HP, you have a TBN value of about 44K. At lower item levels, TBN almost universally breaks in two autos, regardless of encounter.

E5S - Auto attacks in here are low 20K, with higher values being possible. Due to the fact that all of Ramuh's autos are Magic and can't be parried, TBN breaks are fairly consistent, but probably should be lined up with tankbusters or a raidwide damage to ensure the break. Cooldowns combined with a TBN for only autos will probably see the shield expire.

E6S - Garuda, Ifrit, and Raktapaksa all do physical auto attacks that deal high 19K damage, but do not often venture into the 21K and up range that Ramuh can do. Because of this, TBN on autos at BiS is not a viable option. I do not use TBN in my opener if the target is at i500, as it just doesn't break, particularly if any mitigation is applied on top. Raid wide damage and tankbusters only.

E7S - The Idol itself delivers magic auto attacks of around 30K. Two autos will break it no problem, but I wouldn't recommend it, because it seems like it takes "longer" for him to auto, like there's a delay in comparison to other fights. The Idolatry adds are a bit worse, coming in at 20K, making it a more reliable option for stack markers rather then the auto attack damage itself, which is usually taken with Rampart and Dark Mind anyway. As a side note, Dark and Light Course (birds hitting you to change your color), classify as physical damage, and are good TBN bait.

E8S - Shiva is interesting actually. Shiva's auto attacks are all physical, regardless of form or which tank she's hitting. Damage value comes in at a clean-ish 35K, unmitigated. There is, however, some caveats on Shiva that other fights don't possess. Mainly, it's the fact that with mitigation applied, if your TBN target parries two auto attacks in a row, you will probably not break the TBN. So, there is a chance you're unlucky while just mitigating autos properly and are punished at higher gear levels.

Shiva also spends a large majority of her encounter casting things, and between some of those casts, you only get two or three auto attacks, before she starts casting something else, making the timing more important to ensure the first hit after the cast bar is counted and the TBN doesn't expire. Examples of this include;

Post Absolute Zero
Post 1st Doubleslap
Post 1st Morn Afah
Post Mirror Mirror Hallowed Wings
Post 2nd Morn Afah
Post Reflected Mirror Mirror Summoning
Post Holy

And probably more that I'm forgetting about right now. If these seem wrong to anyone, feel free to correct me.