We really need to talk about Living Dead

[Seraphor]

If we're going by the Healer forum, you should know that they hate Superbolide just as much as Living Dead. XD

[cactuarzzzz]

If we're going by the Healer forum, you should know that they hate Superbolide just as much as Living Dead. XD

Only when noob GNB use it.

[VaulRi]

I would just increase duration and make more visible feedback effect for healers
Visual and sound also party plate

[Rilifane]

Living Dead serves its purpose when you're in a clutch and would have definitely died otherwise. In those cases it's like a second chance for your healer to get everything back under control.
This counts for both dungeons and raids. If something went seriously wrong you may be able to salvage it.
The other tank invuls are admittedly much easier to handle without Benediction but it can still give you valuable time.

However when it comes to raids and using it for tankbusters, Living Dead usually adds pressure on healers instead of taking it away.
Depending on gear you need around 3200-3500 potency which is a lot. While every healer can solo heal it, they all need to blow several oGCD and GCD heals to make it in time.
A SCH/ AST comp will, in most cases, need to use more resources than they would've used if the tank simply took regular damage with some mitigation up. Even if you're really lucky with high rolls, Recit Excog and ED crit is not enough, you will need a 2nd ED and/ or Lustrate in addition to DRK selfheal and fairy autos.
The longer duration of LD is only a boon if a mechanic hits several times so they can take more hits compared to other tanks.
But in most situations it only puts unneccessary pressure on healers and completely messes their distribution of tank upkeep resources up.

Compare that to GNB: it brings you to one HP and you have 7sec to heal the GNB above auto attack threshhold while the tank takes no damage at all.
WAR: you can ignore the tank until Holmgang almost runs out and bring above auto attack threshold. Even easier if it was something like 14 or e7 TB where the OT won't take any damage after the one big hit and you have all the time in the world to heal him back up.
PLD: god button. Period. Healers love it.

Haven't progged through e8 until enrage yet but for e5-e7 I can safely say that DRK invul only ever made my life harder than easier when paired with SCH/ Bene wasn't up.
Yet many DRK insisted on using it to "cheese" tankbusters when in reality, it only made it worse. It needs careful planning and holding back resources which makes it inefficient over just eating the damage with mitigation and healing it efficiently and at your own pace.

I'm against streamlining invuls but some form of tweaking that gives it more uses for current encounter design regardless of healer comp would be nice.

As for the others being "less stressful", this should be a non-issue. The first thing the healer should look at when getting into a duty is the job icon for the tank, which will dictate, among other things, the appropriate plan for dealing with the tank's superbutton. If you're in a party with a DRK you should already know that it's possible you will be required to heal them to full in the span of a few seconds, just like if you're in a party with a GNB you should know that you don't need to be alarmed if their HP drops from 120,000 down to 1 in an instant. The answer to the potential stress of these two abilities is awareness and readiness.
.

The purpose of superbuttons is:
1) oh shit I'm gonna die, time to invul!
2) making situations easier

The latter is basically never the case for DRK invul in dungeons. So preparing for the tank to use an invul that makes it worse on a whim is questionable. I mean, yes. We should be prepared to deal with all types of bad decisions but with how invuls work, you will constantly need to hold back some resources just in case the DRK decides it's a fantastic idea to grief his healer.
All other invuls can be used and dealt with on a whim.
The DRK is the only oddball where using the invul outside of "oh shit" situations feels punishing escpecially in dungeons.

Solo healing a DRK invul in a big pull takes several GCDs/ ogCDs and renders the healing useless because they still take damage. You basically just forced a healer to do what they have to do anyway but in a much more inefficient way because of the added timer while not gaining anything.

[Rongway]

However when it comes to raids and using it for tankbusters, Living Dead usually adds pressure on healers instead of taking it away.
Depending on gear you need around 3200-3500 potency which is a lot. While every healer can solo heal it, they all need to blow several oGCD and GCD heals to make it in time.
A SCH/ AST comp will, in most cases, need to use more resources than they would've used if the tank simply took regular damage with some mitigation up.

Yet many DRK insisted on using it to "cheese" tankbusters when in reality, it only made it worse.

Yes, you're right. If the tankbuster would deal lethal damage and basically any other option besides Living Dead is available, Living Dead is the wrong button to press as part of a prophylactic strategy. But that's a problem with tanks choosing to use it at the wrong time; not necessarily a fault of the ability's design.

In the event that there were no other buttons available, Living Dead successfully stops them from dying at least long enough for the healers to handle it, disgruntled though they be from having to make up for the premature expenditure of abilities or resources.

The purpose of superbuttons is:
1) oh shit I'm gonna die, time to invul!
2) making situations easier

The latter is basically never the case for DRK invul in dungeons. So preparing for the tank to use an invul that makes it worse on a whim is questionable. I mean, yes. We should be prepared to deal with all types of bad decisions but with how invuls work, you will constantly need to hold back some resources just in case the DRK decides it's a fantastic idea to grief his healer.

This is the part I don't understand:

Assume Living Dead is the only option available. If the DRK activates Living Dead and still dies, then the healer was doing enough not-healing that the DRK would have died 10s earlier without it...so how is activating it to delay death for 10s somehow griefing the healer? And, still assuming Living Dead is the only option available, how is activating it to delay death for 10s somehow worse than dying 10s ago?

When it's the only button left, Living Dead still puts the DRK and the healer in a strictly better position than they would have been in without it.

[Rilifane]

Yes, you're right. If the tankbuster would deal lethal damage and basically any other option besides Living Dead is available, Living Dead is the wrong button to press as part of a prophylactic strategy. But that's a problem with tanks choosing to use it at the wrong time; not necessarily a fault of the ability's design.

In the event that there were no other buttons available, Living Dead successfully stops them from dying at least long enough for the healers to handle it, disgruntled though they be from having to make up for the premature expenditure of abilities or resources.



This is the part I don't understand:

Assume Living Dead is the only option available. If the DRK activates Living Dead and still dies, then the healer was doing enough not-healing that the DRK would have died 10s earlier without it...so how is activating it to delay death for 10s somehow griefing the healer? And, still assuming Living Dead is the only option available, how is activating it to delay death for 10s somehow worse than dying 10s ago?

When it's the only button left, Living Dead still puts the DRK and the healer in a strictly better position than they would have been in without it.

As I stated above multiple times: it has it's use when you would have definitely died otherwise as it serves to grant you a and the healer a second chance to get things back under control.
If it's the only option available you use it because it's the only option available. Not because it's good. It's your last resort.

I get what you mean "If it doesn't get triggered, no harm done. If it does, the tank would have died anyway". Which is true but that makes it essentially useless it because you use it in hopes of it not getting triggered.
And if you're counting on a skill not having any effect and actively try to prevent it, that's saying something, isn't it?
It has no beneficial effect and in case it does get triggered, the healer is now forced to work very inefficiently. And lack of healing isn't the only reason it may trigger. Eating a pull raw because "invul is up" is the most common reason I've seen for it to trigger.

All other tank invuls can be used without any downside whatsoever and are always a gain. DRK has the only invul that has no inherent gain and makes situations worse if used poorly. It's really only a gain if the party is well-coordinated and everyone knows what they're doing and even then, dungeons are the least likely place for it to be useful.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Living Dead being the worst invuln on the tank with the best non-invuln mitigation kit is fine.

Ill be happy to admit that I am fine with how LD is as long I can keep TBN at current power and circumvent LD use and make it niche / tactical instead. Power budget seems right on point to me, but let's keep judging invulns in a vacuum instead of the entire kits, clearly this is the more important metric.

[Danelo]

Living Dead being the worst invuln on the tank with the best non-invuln mitigation kit is fine.

Ill be happy to admit that I am fine with how LD is as long I can keep TBN at current power and circumvent LD use and make it niche / tactical instead. Power budget seems right on point to me, but let's keep judging invulns in a vacuum instead of the entire kits, clearly this is the more important metric.

Isn’t DRK already paying for TBN with it’s lack of self sustain comparatively to the rest of the tanks? Yes. This mindset is a sandpit. This idea is a one way street that only seems to be applied to DRK if at all. SE doesn’t level classes around ultimates... they are legacies devs leave in bcs they are too afraid to touch them... except inWAR case. DRK should be able to cleanse WD by itself.

[Miminming]

LD is okay it's one of the few identity left on DRK leave it alone, and as a SCH i can handle LD just fine as long as it was not a panic random LD, invul should be use in a planned situassion anyway

[cactuarzzzz]

LD is okay it's one of the few identity left on DRK leave it alone, and as a SCH i can handle LD just fine as long as it was not a panic random LD, invul should be use in a planned situassion anyway

NO THANK. This is like expecting to hear WAR saying holmgang that need target , make them unable to move and last only 6 secs is their identity. We're hoping for the problem to be fixed not a coping mechanism.