We really need to talk about Living Dead

[Miminming]

First of all... who is even talking about last tier? Secondly, check said website and you'll see GNB is dominating the top, with PLD just behind.

I just came back from a 3 year break and cleared most the tier in a couple days. Quit after A8S, came back for O4S, took another break and here I am. Yes, I raid and do know what I'm talking about.

..and DRK is not an undisputed tank??? It's an okay tank, yeah. TBN is great, lowest DPS but not by much, and has the worst invuln. That literally sums up DRK.

Again though... this isn't about ranking the tanks. They all got problems, and Living Dead is DRK's biggest.

Um... No only you talking about the ranking of the tank and you especially only seeing the DPS number, GNB may have better DPS but GNB is never ever a better MT than DRK and which tier are you talking about!? All past tier is worthless to be debate right now... and no you don't know enough what are you talking about because DRK IS the undisputed BEST defensive tank which make him the BEST MT.

And again i suggest you look at the certain site and i don't mean DPS number but the number of clear parse on TEA which show the power difference between job since people tend to choose the better job for ultimate, i know few WAR and GNB main who switch to DRK for ultimate. Not saying WAR and GNB is impossible to do, but DRK is just that much OP with TBN.

You need to factor overall healing requirement when discussing the best tank and not blinded by DPS, especially now since DPS difference is minor.

[Miminming]

Oh okay i mistaken e4s and e8s since in jp they call e8s 共鳴4層, my bad there!

but do try to read the atmosphere there...

[DWolfwood]

Um... No only you talking about the ranking of the tank and you especially only seeing the DPS number, GNB may have better DPS but GNB is never ever a better MT than DRK and which tier are you talking about!? All past tier is worthless to be debate right now... and no you don't know enough what are you talking about because DRK IS the undisputed BEST defensive tank which make him the BEST MT.

And again i suggest you look at the certain site and i don't mean DPS number but the number of clear parse on TEA which show the power difference between job since people tend to choose the better job for ultimate, i know few WAR and GNB main who switch to DRK for ultimate. Not saying WAR and GNB is impossible to do, but DRK is just that much OP with TBN.

You need to factor overall healing requirement when discussing the best tank and not blinded by DPS, especially now since DPS difference is minor.

You were the one referencing E4S. Conveniently omitting E8S which has a ludicrous higher amount of PLD than any other tank.

As for Ultimates, yeah I'm not gonna argue TBN makes DRK quite strong in terms of mitigation for those fights, but this isn't about that. Of course the best healers can work with LD and have done so since day one. WAR also used to be able to tank just fine in 4.0 and 2.0, but clearly needed changes as well.

Again, all the tanks need changes. LD is just what DRK needs fixed and it's been that way for 5 years.


Edit -

E8S clear numbers:

PLD - 6162
DRK - 4627
GNB - 3549
WAR - 3048

TEA clear numbers:

PLD - 599
DRK - 561
WAR - 209
GNB - 190

That said, again, this is a poor way of adjusting skills and it's the best way to ensure broken skills never get fixed.

[TheRealQuah]

Firstly, LD is not a bad skill. You and your team plan out when you are going to use it and there's no problems, which is what you should be doing anyway. Learn to communicate. There's no point discussing it's merits outside of raiding, because it literally doesn't matter. Casual content is casual content, you die, so what.

Secondly, on the arguments about MT and OT, what's the point in that discussion? Every combination of tanks can work well in both roles, and it only matters who does what if you are speed running.

[Lucy_Pyre]

DRK is not an undisputed tank??? It's an okay tank

No, DRK is absolutely 100% the undisputed kind of mitigation. TBN is so ungodly, ridiculously, brokenly powerful. The skill is legitimately insanely strong. The only non-invuln skill that is capable of comparing in terms of damage mitigation with TBN is Nascent Flash, and even then only when you're able to dump a certain amount of burst damage into the cooldown since the healing is directly tied to your damage dealt for the buff's duration. This means that while Nascent Flash is capable of surpassing TBN in very specific situations, in terms of overall average strength TBN wins out over it. TBN mitigates well over 40,000 damage on a tank in current gear, and although you can't use it completely on cooldown as DRK cannot sustain their mana regeneration to do that, it's entirely feasible to use the skill every 30 seconds if necessary. So we have a potential 40k (MINIMUM, but probably even more depending on tank HP) damage mitigated every 30 seconds with TBN. To contrast this, in order for Vengeance/Shadow Wall/Nebula/Sentinel (what is generally considered most tank's strongest non-invuln cooldowns) to mitigate a comparable amount of damage, a tank would have to take a hit of at least around 150,000 damage for their 30% mitigation skill to mitigate 45,000 damage of that hit. Now, while I know that there are a handful of busters in the game that do hit that hard, they are very few an far between. Moreover; those respective 30% mitigation cooldowns each have a recast of two minutes. This means that in the time that you can use those cooldowns to mitigate one instance of that amount of damage, you can use TBN to do the same at a minimum of four times, and probably even more accurately five or six. So, frankly, yes, DRK is the completely undisputed king of mitigation. No skill comes close to how much raw mitigation over the course of a fight TBN provides. To try and argue otherwise is simply objectively incorrect.

[Lyth]

You don't get scored based on how much damage you mitigate, any more than you get scored based on how much enmity you generate. You either live, or you die. That's why invulns trivialise mitigation checks. You can't even begin to discuss anything else until that's out of the way.

[Miminming]

You were the one referencing E4S. Conveniently omitting E8S which has a ludicrous higher amount of PLD than any other tank.

As for Ultimates, yeah I'm not gonna argue TBN makes DRK quite strong in terms of mitigation for those fights, but this isn't about that. Of course the best healers can work with LD and have done so since day one. WAR also used to be able to tank just fine in 4.0 and 2.0, but clearly needed changes as well.

Again, all the tanks need changes. LD is just what DRK needs fixed and it's been that way for 5 years.


Edit -

E8S clear numbers:

PLD - 6162
DRK - 4627
GNB - 3549
WAR - 3048

TEA clear numbers:

PLD - 599
DRK - 561
WAR - 209
GNB - 190

That said, again, this is a poor way of adjusting skills and it's the best way to ensure broken skills never get fixed.

It was a counter argument towards your claim that GNB and PLD are the best tank, which claiming thats the reason DRK need the fix of the not broken LD.

GNB is never ever even close to DRK in term of best tank, PLD only best at OT and is actually BAD at MT, which DRK excel at.

While the number of clear parse may not be the best mean adjusting skill, it is a statistic to be accounted for.

And again GNB is not the best tank, and you claim is without reason.

QUOTE=Lyth;5378049]You don't get scored based on how much damage you mitigate, any more than you get scored based on how much enmity you generate. You either live, or you die. That's why invulns trivialise mitigation checks. You can't even begin to discuss anything else until that's out of the way.[/QUOTE]

Then no point in discussing LD because all fight is surviveable without it.

[Lucy_Pyre]

You don't get scored based on how much damage you mitigate, any more than you get scored based on how much enmity you generate. You either live, or you die. That's why invulns trivialise mitigation checks. You can't even begin to discuss anything else until that's out of the way.

More damage mitigated = less healing done by the healers = more DPS done by the healers = faster & better clears = more mitigated is better.

[Lyth]

Most healing doesn't happen on the GCD.

[DWolfwood]

It was a counter argument towards your claim that GNB and PLD are the best tank, which claiming thats the reason DRK need the fix of the not broken LD.

GNB is never ever even close to DRK in term of best tank, PLD only best at OT and is actually BAD at MT, which DRK excel at.

While the number of clear parse may not be the best mean adjusting skill, it is a statistic to be accounted for.

And again GNB is not the best tank, and you claim is without reason.

QUOTE=Lyth;5378049]You don't get scored based on how much damage you mitigate, any more than you get scored based on how much enmity you generate. You either live, or you die. That's why invulns trivialise mitigation checks. You can't even begin to discuss anything else until that's out of the way.

Then no point in discussing LD because all fight is surviveable without it.

If you reread what I originally said, I put them in "quotes" to emphasis that there is no real best tank these days since they're largely all the same.

Furthermore, I've been saying I think it's dumb reasoning to not adjust bad skills such as Living Dead, just because the rest of their kit outweighs others in certain situations.