Thread: The potential problem with low level Roulettes in 6.0

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I think having the basic skeleton of your toolkit by level 50....

Personally I would also suggest having the first AoE at level 15 for every class. To have at least one in case of the lowest dungeons. When it comes to your Bard suggestions I absolutly agree with the notion that the songs, all of them, should be available as soon as possible since they are what make the Bard...a Bard The core of every class should be one of the priority when it comes to the progess after receiving your jobcrystal at level 30. I think, from my experience, that dancer is one of the classes that handles it the best at the moment. Even though I think dancepartner should be available at the very least at level 50 since it is one of its core mechanics, as well as i would prefer flourisch pre 70. I generally would prefer less rng. Although I realise that a more controllable approache would result in a couple of nerfs. That would be unavoidable but even though even the dancer offers room for improvement, people like myself, that take great joy in trying to improve in playing their classes would, at least least in my opinion, take much more joy in it, if the results would be more dependent on personal skill than luck. That is something I like about Machinist. The general approach. Even though the class is one off the easiest because of that, predictability and planning could be a blast while playing the dancer! Especially when you would get more opportunities to plan meele combat to add a bit of complexity

Of course this class is meant to be decently executable on a basic level for new players. But it still would be nice, for every class to be honest, to have higher possible skillcap for those that enjoy min-maxing and putting a lot of effort in a class

Originally Posted by Alice_Chrystal

- Let higher-level players keep their skills in low level content.

There are a couple of problems with that.

1. Newbies could get kicked. That something that often comes up. Even if I don't think that this point deserves that much weight...because there are always people that are *caugh* not nice and that will kick newbies for stupid reasons.

2. You faceroll even harder through said content.

3. You could increase the difficulty...but that could be difficult to balance. The vet might have fun but the newbie might feel crushed.

4. When talking about that, people are usually in the "just scale the damages so that a 80 player using his full rotation will make as much dps as the sprout using way less buttons" mindset. Which can make sense if you don't want to get bored not having all your skills anymore.

For example let's take a low level sprout in Sastasha. Using one or two button he will make an average of 100 dps (100 is just a number i did choose randomly, i dont have any clue of what the real value is). That means a level 80 player using his full level 80 single and aoe rotations will make an average of 100 dps as well when scaled down in the same dungeon.

But what about high level players not having a clue of how to play properly ?

The 80 MCH who keeps pressing only spread shot in packs will make only 10 dps. The 80 NIN who keeps single targetting in packs will make even less. Bosses will seems to last an eternity with this 80 RDM using only jolt2 on them. And so on.

When you look at the tales from df topic, there is quite a lot of people complaining of maxed players playing badly, making their expert roulettes more long than usual. I don't think that people advocating for keeping all our skills when synched down realise all the problems it could bring. Do you really want Sastasha, and all the low and middle level dungeons alongside it, suddenly taking forever when paired with two 80 dps players not using all their skills properly ?

The same reasoning can be made for healing scaling and tanking scaling. Enjoy wiping on a few low level bats because this 80 healer is not using his ogcds at all, and because this 80 DRK don't use TBN on top on another defense cd on each packs.

You think you want it, but you don't XD

Originally Posted by Alice_Chrystal

Personally I would also suggest having the first AoE at level 15 for every class. To have at least one in case of the lowest dungeons. When it comes to your Bard suggestions I absolutly agree with the notion that the songs, all of them, should be available as soon as possible since they are what make the Bard...a Bard The core of every class should be one of the priority when it comes to the progess after receiving your jobcrystal at level 30. I think, from my experience, that dancer is one of the classes that handles it the best at the moment. Even though I think dancepartner should be available at the very least at level 50 since it is one of its core mechanics, as well as i would prefer flourisch pre 70. I generally would prefer less rng. Although I realise that a more controllable approache would result in a couple of nerfs. That would be unavoidable but even though even the dancer offers room for improvement, people like myself, that take great joy in trying to improve in playing their classes would, at least least in my opinion, take much more joy in it, if the results would be more dependent on personal skill that luck. That is something I like about Machinist. The general approach. Even though the class is one off the easiest because of that, predictability and planning could be a blast while playing the dancer! Especially when you would get more opportunities to plan meele combat to add a bit of complexity

Of course this class is meant to be decently executable on a basic level for new players. But it still would be nice, for every class to be honest, to have higher possible skillcap for those that enjoy min-maxing and putting a lot of effort in a class

Having AOE at 15 is definitely something I agree with. I left it at 18 because it’s not terrible to not have it in Sastasha/Tam-Tara/Copperbell because they are so baby, but I can be behind it being 15 or 18. Either is great. Having it pre-20 before Halatali can be unlocked is a must for me. And this goes for all jobs. Melee DPS learning theirs in the 40s for some (e.g., DRG, NIN) is so dumb.

For DNC, I was looking at its skills, and I would personally move Closed Position to Level 52 or somewhere around there. I don’t think it’s a good level 60 skill when you consider other 60 capstone skills for other jobs. You have the “skeleton” by 50, and now you learn how to be more supporty (if we were to argue the job starting from a level 1 new-player perspective). Having it at 60 is silly—even though the job starts there, because content does not. I could get behind it being the 50 capstone skill, too, though. Both are wonderful spots for it.

At level 60, I would make Flourish the capstone. It would really reduce the RNG feel from 60~80, and it feels like a good level 60 skill to have. I get what they were going for by not giving it right away—because I’m sure they were thinking “Don’t wanna overwhelm brand new DNCs“—but level 72 is way too late and inexcusable. Level 62 at the absolute latest. It should be the first thing you learn after unlocking DNC.

I’d also lower Saber Dance and Esprit management to somewhere between 60~70. If that’s not compromisable, level 72 at the latest, giving DNC an ShB gimmick to get used to. I think level 76 is a bit too late for such an important job gimmick. Devilment would be a better level 80 capstone skill than Improvisation, imo, because it is really good (for both the DNC and their Partner). And Improv needs improvements.

I personally think level 30 is way too soon to throw everything at new players. Especially since FFXIV deals heavily with the class system still for the first 30 levels. In addition to it making no sense in terms of the lore (imagine an ARC pulling a bow randomly to use a BRD skill before they ever evolve into a BRD), it would also overwhelm baby players. FFXIV very heavily caters to people that aren’t as experience in MMOs. I know I was overwhelmed when I was new back in HW, as someone who had never played MMOs before. Having an entire toolkit thrown at me in the first 30 levels would have been nerve-racking lol.

I think level 50 is the bare minimum for your basic kit. Everything after that should build upon it in terms of either upgrades/masteries, or new capstone skills that feel rewarding to get at the end of a current expansion or level cap.

Originally Posted by Alice_Chrystal

I guess one of the reasons aside that it might overwhelm new folks is that it might be too strong I get that point since Dancer is very strong at lower levels (even though we are completly in the hands of rng). Maybe they could put flourish on a higher cooldown at level 52 for example and shorten it with a passive at 60, 62. Something like that Or with close position...adding it early but not with the 5 % buff at the start but maybe 2% and upgrading it later.

These are just examples though not numbers I actually suggest

The strength aspect could easily be mitigated by mastery traits. At higher levels, you could gain mastery traits that boost your damage output. This actually used to be the case with the other jobs—they would get things like Dexterity Mastery for the physical ranged that would boost their base level of damage output.