Thread: The potential problem with low level Roulettes in 6.0

So basically beeing able to use your fundamental Tool-Kit at 50 or 60 and adding the subtleties after that? I would love that! Stuff like the extra charges and upgrades to your existing skills. That could possibly also help raising the general skill of the community. I witnessed a large skillgap in the community and maybe it would help to be confronted with your base-toolkit early on to figur it out while going through easier content.

Even though I would appreciate if the level 50 Alliance Raids would get a buff (in the case of having said toolkit) to maybe make said content more enjoyable And getting to see mechanics that we probably don't see anymore :3

Originally Posted by Alice_Chrystal

So basically beeing able to use your fundamental Tool-Kit at 50 or 60 and adding the subtleties after that? I would love that! Stuff like the extra charges and upgrades to your existing skills. That could possibly also help raising the general skill of the community. I witnessed a large skillgap in the community and maybe it would help to be confronted with your base-toolkit early on to figur it out while going through easier content.

Even though I would appreciate if the level 50 Alliance Raids would get a buff (in the case of having said toolkit) to maybe make said content more enjoyable And getting to see mechanics that we probably don't see anymore :3

I think having the basic skeleton of your toolkit by level 50 is definitely the way things should go. It’s the first “level cap” of the game, the end of the base game before any expansions. It makes sense to have the full skeleton of your toolkit by then. The following levels can give you things that are upgrades (e.g., Bite Mastery on BRD that upgrades your DoTs), with other “level caps” (60, 70, 80, etc.) giving you a skill that feels worthy of being a capstone skill.

I’m actually discussing with a friend now on how we would squish skills for some of the jobs we play. Like, for example, this is what we discussed for ARC/BRD:

ARC—

Level 1: Heavy Shot
Level 2: Straight Shot
Level 5: Venomous Bite + Windbite
—I think both DoTs should be learned together because you will always use them together in most scenarios once you have both of them. Having one at level 8 and the other at level 30 makes no sense to me.
Level 10: Bloodletter (+ Rain of Death)
—I could almost make the argument of learning both Bloodletter and Rain of Death together, because I’ve squashed some of the skills you learn during level 30~50 BRD. But for simplicity’s sake, only BL right now.
Level 15: Repelling Shot
—I’d personally re-add the damage to Repelling because it’s kind of silly to have a back step on a job with full mobility, but that’s my opinion. I deleted the skill off my hotbar the moment 4.0 dropped and it didn’t deal damage anymore.
Level 18: Quick Nock
—Personally, I don’t mind AOEs being learned sooner (pre-15 before Sastasha), but I think all jobs should have at least one by level 20 and no later. I can excuse not having it in the first three dungeons since they are baby dungeons and hardly threatening.
Level 20: Rain of Death
Level 25: Barrage
—There’s literally no reason to learn this at level 38. It’s silly, in my opinion.
Level 30: Raging Strikes
—I know the level 30 ARC quest makes a big deal about Windbite, but I think a personal damage buff does much better as a level 30 “class capstone” skill. And it functions better when you have more of your toolkit to benefit from it than it would at level 4, which is when you learn it now.

BRD—

Level 30: Wanderer’s Minuet + Pitch Perfect
—There is no reason to learn this at level 52. Not anymore, now that bowmage is no longer a thing. It is the strongest song and the first you use in a standard single-target rotation, so it should be learned first.
Level 35: Mage’s Ballad
Level 40: Army’s Paeon
—By now, you have your full song rotation learned in the order you will normally use them (outside of AOE scenarios). That is how it should be with current BRD’s design.
Level 45: Empyreal Arrow (plus its trait—it’s stupid that the force proc trait is level 68. That’s something you should get used to by the time you’re level 50).
Level 50: Battle Voice
—A party buff is a good capstone ability for BRD. It gives it that BRD feel of being a support job.

Level 60: Sidewinder
—Good level 60 skill. Wouldn’t change that.
Level 62: Caustic Bite + Stormbite upgrade
Level 64: Shadowbite
—I would move this one down. It’s AOE Sidewinder. Now that you have Sidewinder (level 60), getting an AOE upgrade sooner would be nice.
Level 70: Refulgent Arrow
—Good level 70 skill.
Level 72: Burst Shot upgrade
Level 74: Enhanced Quick Nock trait
—Having the AOE upgrade here would be fine, in my opinion. Again, my idea here is to upgrade and build on your existing kit, and it’s not like BRD’s AOE suffers before this level.
Level 80: Apex Arrow
—Make this stupid skill better than what it is if it’s going to be a capstone skill. Please. It feels so tacked on and terrible.


Other skills:

Iron Jaws: Learning this through the HW levels (50~60) would be nice as a good “upgrade” for the basic BRD toolkit. I’d personally like to see it pre-50, but that’s just me.
Troubadour: Learning this anywhere in the HW or SB levels would be fine. It’s a utility, BRD-y upgrade.
Nature’s Minne: See above.
Warden’s Paeon: See above, but with an added caveat of maybe considering a repurposing of the skill. Simply because the Esuna is so niche, since a lot of debuffs at higher levels cannot be cleansed. It maybe being a single-target shield a la Palisade from SB would be nice. Again, a utility, BRD-y kind of feel for the skill.

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I would also consolidate the combos and proccable attacks (Straight Shot/Refulgent Arrow. Windmill, Bloodshower, etc) , into a single button to give the devs somemore room where applicable for new skills.

(for the Dance moves on Dancers, the Green and Yellow ones would be moved to the AoE attacks the latter's icons would change color to reflect this, and the basic combo would not be consolidated in favor of having them change into the attacks they proc instead. Likewise the proc'd attacks' icons would change colors to match the respective dance moves of the attacks that would proc them)

Absolute NO for any sort of skill consolidation, for me. Especially on a job like DNC that barely has any buttons to begin with. I’d rather see less new skills going forward (with the exception of capstone abilities), and more traits that upgrade your kit into something stronger. If button bloat is that huge of a concern. (Which, for DNC, it really shouldn’t be because DNC has a lot of hotbar real estate—all the physical ranged do.)

However, for the Straight Shot/Refulgent consolidation, this is already the case. Straight Shot becomes Refulgent at level 70 via a trait. They are no longer separate as of 5.0 (which I personally dislike because I liked the SS buff upkeep to give BRD another layer of stuff to do but that’s me).

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I think having the basic skeleton of your toolkit by level 50....

Personally I would also suggest having the first AoE at level 15 for every class. To have at least one in case of the lowest dungeons. When it comes to your Bard suggestions I absolutly agree with the notion that the songs, all of them, should be available as soon as possible since they are what make the Bard...a Bard The core of every class should be one of the priority when it comes to the progess after receiving your jobcrystal at level 30. I think, from my experience, that dancer is one of the classes that handles it the best at the moment. Even though I think dancepartner should be available at the very least at level 50 since it is one of its core mechanics, as well as i would prefer flourisch pre 70. I generally would prefer less rng. Although I realise that a more controllable approache would result in a couple of nerfs. That would be unavoidable but even though even the dancer offers room for improvement, people like myself, that take great joy in trying to improve in playing their classes would, at least least in my opinion, take much more joy in it, if the results would be more dependent on personal skill than luck. That is something I like about Machinist. The general approach. Even though the class is one off the easiest because of that, predictability and planning could be a blast while playing the dancer! Especially when you would get more opportunities to plan meele combat to add a bit of complexity

Of course this class is meant to be decently executable on a basic level for new players. But it still would be nice, for every class to be honest, to have higher possible skillcap for those that enjoy min-maxing and putting a lot of effort in a class

Originally Posted by Alice_Chrystal

Personally I would also suggest having the first AoE at level 15 for every class. To have at least one in case of the lowest dungeons. When it comes to your Bard suggestions I absolutly agree with the notion that the songs, all of them, should be available as soon as possible since they are what make the Bard...a Bard The core of every class should be one of the priority when it comes to the progess after receiving your jobcrystal at level 30. I think, from my experience, that dancer is one of the classes that handles it the best at the moment. Even though I think dancepartner should be available at the very least at level 50 since it is one of its core mechanics, as well as i would prefer flourisch pre 70. I generally would prefer less rng. Although I realise that a more controllable approache would result in a couple of nerfs. That would be unavoidable but even though even the dancer offers room for improvement, people like myself, that take great joy in trying to improve in playing their classes would, at least least in my opinion, take much more joy in it, if the results would be more dependent on personal skill that luck. That is something I like about Machinist. The general approach. Even though the class is one off the easiest because of that, predictability and planning could be a blast while playing the dancer! Especially when you would get more opportunities to plan meele combat to add a bit of complexity

Of course this class is meant to be decently executable on a basic level for new players. But it still would be nice, for every class to be honest, to have higher possible skillcap for those that enjoy min-maxing and putting a lot of effort in a class

Having AOE at 15 is definitely something I agree with. I left it at 18 because it’s not terrible to not have it in Sastasha/Tam-Tara/Copperbell because they are so baby, but I can be behind it being 15 or 18. Either is great. Having it pre-20 before Halatali can be unlocked is a must for me. And this goes for all jobs. Melee DPS learning theirs in the 40s for some (e.g., DRG, NIN) is so dumb.

For DNC, I was looking at its skills, and I would personally move Closed Position to Level 52 or somewhere around there. I don’t think it’s a good level 60 skill when you consider other 60 capstone skills for other jobs. You have the “skeleton” by 50, and now you learn how to be more supporty (if we were to argue the job starting from a level 1 new-player perspective). Having it at 60 is silly—even though the job starts there, because content does not. I could get behind it being the 50 capstone skill, too, though. Both are wonderful spots for it.

At level 60, I would make Flourish the capstone. It would really reduce the RNG feel from 60~80, and it feels like a good level 60 skill to have. I get what they were going for by not giving it right away—because I’m sure they were thinking “Don’t wanna overwhelm brand new DNCs“—but level 72 is way too late and inexcusable. Level 62 at the absolute latest. It should be the first thing you learn after unlocking DNC.

I’d also lower Saber Dance and Esprit management to somewhere between 60~70. If that’s not compromisable, level 72 at the latest, giving DNC an ShB gimmick to get used to. I think level 76 is a bit too late for such an important job gimmick. Devilment would be a better level 80 capstone skill than Improvisation, imo, because it is really good (for both the DNC and their Partner). And Improv needs improvements.

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Absolute NO for any sort of skill consolidation, for me. Especially on a job like DNC that barely has any buttons to begin with. I’d rather see less new skills going forward (with the exception of capstone abilities), and more traits that upgrade your kit into something stronger. If button bloat is that huge of a concern. (Which, for DNC, it really shouldn’t be because DNC has a lot of hotbar real estate—all the physical ranged do.)

However, for the Straight Shot/Refulgent consolidation, this is already the case. Straight Shot becomes Refulgent at level 70 via a trait. They are no longer separate as of 5.0 (which I personally dislike because I liked the SS buff upkeep to give BRD another layer of stuff to do but that’s me).

I should clarify that I mean having Reflugent take the place of Heavy if proc'd (not that it would change your opinion)

Originally Posted by Alice_Chrystal

So basically beeing able to use your fundamental Tool-Kit at 50 or 60 and adding the subtleties after that?

An FC friend and I were discussing a similar issue and basically arrived at a similar conclusion as this, where like if you took Red Mage and moved all of the main abilities and spaced them appropriately leading up to 50, with the exception of Manafication at 60, Verholy at 70 (you'd have Verflare before or at 50, to get a taste of the melee finisher), and Scorch at 80. Traits could even stay the same.

You'd be trading the feeling of "Oh nice ability/change" in the 60s or 70s level range (which, having leveled a good chunk of them to 80 recently, is very much a thing) for feeling like the job was basically just about feature complete at 50 and more importantly feels better to play in the 1-50 range, which is definitely important for new players (and given the continued support and encouragement for players to revisit 50 and below content, important for veterans as well)...and still achieve the same result we have now with the same amount of abilities at level-cap.

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Halve or third the mitigation values on them, problem solved. The PLD has lower mitigation for a longer duration. Overall they have about the same mitigation.

I assume this would be via some sort of tiered change that kicks in at certain levels but doesn't apply past that? Having 10%, 15%, and 10% again at end-game just to have them last longer would necessitate quite a bit more rebalancing of content past when Gladiator is relevant.

Which, in trying to solve one issue you've introduced another, in that now the person who levels Gladiator has to remember that the same abilities that did 20% for 20 seconds, etc., now do half that for double the duration (questionable use at that level, not sure when you'd need cool downs that last that long, 10% or otherwise) but only in a certain level range, and potentially adjust accordingly, introducing a wrinkle into learning their job that only exists in a specific scenario that isn't even relevant to end-game?

Sure, the numbers look like they work on paper. Consider how that would feel to actually play - not so simple to solve, now is it?

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Skill durations aren't changing, the longer duration comes from the PLD having more defense skills than GLA. PLD with halved or thirded effectiveness Rampart, Sentinel, Sheltron vs GLA with normal Rampart for example.

Your clarification here makes what you said previously make more sense in terms of the duration - the way I read it before it sounded like you were meaning the duration of all skills when combined, but rather on a per skill basis.

That being said - I still don't think it would feel good to play, assuming I'm understanding your suggestion here, that when playing on Paladin and being below a certain level, the damage reduction amount would be reduced to account for having more skills to use versus a Gladiator?

So Paladin would have Rampart, Sentinel, etc., which would last the same length, but do less damage reduction (like 10%, 15% below a certain level? And Gladiator's would do the normal intended amount, also at the same duration?

So assuming that is the correct interpretation...you still have the issue that you're asking the Paladin to play differently to survive the same packs...as it's ultimately the duration of the cooldown is only a portion of the consideration of when to use it, and honestly it's not at all the main consideration. Rampart is ultimately used not because it has a 20 second duration, but because it has a 20% damage reduction - that's the case in a trash pull and versus a tank buster. Most trash pulls at lower levels aren't going to benefit from being able to use more cooldowns in succession.

Instead it would almost certainly result in the Paladin feeling like they need to stack those cooldowns to achieve the same or similar damage reduction they had when they were lower level or they would feel squishier as a tank than the tank that comes in as a Gladiator with just a couple that do their intended full amount...which would still result in a different in how the job is played at higher levels, when the defensive cooldowns do their intended amount. You still end up introducing variations in how the job plays that make going into lower level content as a higher level player feel less good.

Your assumption that, in a same size pull, a Gladiator with a 20% Rampart and a numbers-synced Paladin with a 10% Rampart are both only go to press Rampart is faulty. The Paladin is, almost certainly, going to press an additional skill alongside that Rampart so they feel like the pull is like it was a Gladiator with a 20% Rampart.

That doesn't sound like it would be much fun to deal with, even if (again) the numbers look good on paper. I'd be having to press more buttons for the same effect, just because I'm a higher level going into a lower level dungeon.

In what gaming world does that sound fun?