An idea to add/return some identity and complexity to tanks

[Snek]

So I had an idea to return some complexity and identity to tanks while maintaining the low barrier of entry... All tanks should have high enmity generation by default with no tank stance. BUT now all tanks can have unique ways to SPEND enmity to manage it. The goal is that good tanks will just maintain enmity, bad tanks will blow all their enmity and lose aggro (killing their party), and an excellent tank will be skirting the 2nd place enmity generator while maintaining boss aggro. A simple risk-reward system.

Enmity generating and spending can be made very unique to each tank and really push their identity. Here are a few examples:

Warrior (gain a huge amount of enmity and spend it all in their burst window)
Fell Cleave/Decimate: no longer costs beast gauge, now costs X amount of enmity to cast
Berserk: allows 3 casts of Fell Cleave without the enmity cost
Blood Bath: all attacks converts enmity into HP for 15 seconds
Unchained: Only half of your enmity is seen by enemies (allows them to be the offtank while banking up their enmity for their burst window)
Defiance: a channel (think meditate from SAM) all damage taken is converted into enmity, effect ends upon using another action or moving
Onslaught: 30 second CD, 2 charges, now generates 20 beast gauge upon use
Inner chaos: can be placed on bar, no longer needs Nascent Chaos

Dark Knight (dance on the edge of losing enmity)
Dark Arts: convert X amount of enmity into Y amount of mana
Delirium: force the target to attack you for 2 seconds and reduce your enmity to the next highest enmity target while regenerating a huge amount of mana over 15 seconds
Darkside: no longer regenerate mana while active, if you are Y enmity points away from the highest or second highest enmity, gain an additional 5% damage
Scourge: is a GCD with its own CD (think Drill from MCH) deal 350 potency and apply a “dot” that deals 0 potency but passively increases your enmity for 30 seconds, 60 second CD
Purge (old HW delirium animation): is a GCD with a 120 second CD, deals 400 potency and instantly gain all remaining enmity from scourge and resetting its timer

Role skill/trait changes
Provoke: force the target to attack you for 6 seconds
Shirk: removed
Tank Mastery: “you retain all your enmity generated when revived” added
Tenacity now also increases your enmity generated by all your skills and lowers your enmity spenders costs


Now obviously this isn't complete and will need serious tweaking, but it's an idea for a tank mechanic that can be used to make unique playstyles and a skill ceiling for tanks. They can also add GCD skills that do very little to zero potency attacks, so long as these skills have an enmity component to them. Tanks will effectively be “banking” their damage for later... They can also add skills (to tanks) to manipulate healer/DPS enmity.

[dangadget]

It's an interesting idea, but if I am understanding you correctly, it's also a bit problematic.
Tanks generate enmity, which they then spend on (mostly) DPS skills.
The increased DPS results in more enmity, but using the skills loses enmity.....?
Sounds like a nightmare to balance

[Snek]

It's an interesting idea, but if I am understanding you correctly, it's also a bit problematic.
Tanks generate enmity, which they then spend on (mostly) DPS skills.
The increased DPS results in more enmity, but using the skills loses enmity.....?
Sounds like a nightmare to balance

Oh it is certainly problematic in that enmity would need to be re-balanced across all classes plus we'd need a visual indicator if using a spender will drop 1st place aggro. They'd likely have to make it so even if a skill crits, the enmity gain stays as if it doesn't. IMO The most difficult part is displaying the enmity in a readable manner.

The increase in DPS would result in more enmity in the current system. Think of the spenders as having a static burn value regardless of crit/DH (think of SAMs old Merciful Eyes if it doesn't crit), and think of all the other skills as having an enmity gain value as they do now with tank stance on. Doing damage does not have to mean you get enmity. For example, in this hypothetical WAR their entire downtime would be focused on building an insane amount of enmity so that they can fell cleave like crazy during their IR window. So using Inner Chaos, Berserk, Defiance, etc. and other skills designed to move enmity around so you're actually building up to the burst instead of waiting for it. I think it allows for more creative ideas as having zero potency GCDs could work if they give you enmity to result in neutral DPS or even a DPS gain.

The enmity abilities that don't do damage (WAR getting a heal with Bloodbath) is more like giving them a sort of self Clemency. You'd never use it outside of prog/dire emergencies. It's more to show you can build skills that helps bring back some identity to the class and distinguishes it with disaster mitigation tools.

Is it a lot of number crunching? Yes. Will it take a long time? of course... But so does designing and adding anything new. It's not a "quick fix" solution idea... But it'd be nice if they added a mechanic to tanks instead of removing them.

[BarretOblivion]

Hurrah! Lets hit emnity and bring back the age of Stormblood where the party watches their own hate, what could possibly go wrong with that?
-_-

No. This is not the answer. Emnity in every MMO with the trinity either has the party focus on managing thier own hate, or having the tank so far ahead on emnity that its almost non issue. Lets not devolve and uses enmity please, and focus on making quality kits and encounters instead and leave emnity alone, else Tanks are just going to fight over the OT role and start screaming at their groups to watch their hate.

[Jirah]

Hurrah! Lets hit emnity and bring back the age of Stormblood where the party watches their own hate, what could possibly go wrong with that?
-_-

No. This is not the answer. Emnity in every MMO with the trinity either has the party focus on managing thier own hate, or having the tank so far ahead on emnity that its almost non issue. Lets not devolve and uses enmity please, and focus on making quality kits and encounters instead and leave emnity alone, else Tanks are just going to fight over the OT role and start screaming at their groups to watch their hate.

i dont beleive what we currently have is a good alternative and with healers, started the whole homogenization in the first place.

[Quintessa]

I'd probably stop tanking.

[Snek]

Hurrah! Lets hit emnity and bring back the age of Stormblood where the party watches their own hate, what could possibly go wrong with that?
-_-

No. This is not the answer. Emnity in every MMO with the trinity either has the party focus on managing thier own hate, or having the tank so far ahead on emnity that its almost non issue. Lets not devolve and uses enmity please, and focus on making quality kits and encounters instead and leave emnity alone, else Tanks are just going to fight over the OT role and start screaming at their groups to watch their hate.

But how would the DPS/healers manage their own enmity if they have zero enmity management skills outside of not attacking (which obviously isn't viable)? Didn't say anything about giving them enmity skills, nor should they get any as it is directly tied to the tanks DPS. Why not instead give unique management skills to tanks to use for managing their entire parties enmity as I suggested (target a person to move their enmity onto themselves, a skill that lowers a targets enmity with the damage you do, etc.). If they do manage the enmity they get rewarded with higher damage instead of lower damage as it was in Stormblood. Nobody wants Stormbloods system back... it was awful.

[SamRF]

It's an interesting idea, but if I am understanding you correctly, it's also a bit problematic.
Tanks generate enmity, which they then spend on (mostly) DPS skills.
The increased DPS results in more enmity, but using the skills loses enmity.....?
Sounds like a nightmare to balance

Just make the enmity loss more significant than the enmity gain from the increased damage? This doesn't seem particularly difficult to balance to me. The amount of enmity-eating actions you can do would depend on how well you play your normal, enmity gaining actions. Only your normal actions increase enmity here. The dps gain from enmity-eating actions would "simply" need to be about the same for all tanks for balance to be managable I think.

My biggest problem with this suggestion at the moment is flavor. What's the the thematic reason that doing those actions makes you lose aggro? How would you explain it lore wise? With the aggro gaining actions we used to have, you can kind of make sense of it that they're actions that might provoke enemies in a certain way, making them aggro to you more but how would you make sense of a DPS ability that makes you lose aggro? You instill fear or something to the enemy? It'd be a little weird but probably doable, just personally cant make sense of it yet because they are the actions that do most DPS.

[BarretOblivion]

But how would the DPS/healers manage their own enmity if they have zero enmity management skills outside of not attacking (which obviously isn't viable)? Didn't say anything about giving them enmity skills, nor should they get any as it is directly tied to the tanks DPS. Why not instead give unique management skills to tanks to use for managing their entire parties enmity as I suggested (target a person to move their enmity onto themselves, a skill that lowers a targets enmity with the damage you do, etc.). If they do manage the enmity they get rewarded with higher damage instead of lower damage as it was in Stormblood. Nobody wants Stormbloods system back... it was awful.

Because no game does this for a reason. They either have the raid group manage thier hate, or have the tanks be so far ahead on hate its not an issue. One of the most undesirable aspects of tanking would be managing hate when before managing it with aggro combos actually got IN THE WAY of how the jobs would flow and were counterproductive (IE not gaining any MP as a DRK, or being a beast guage generation loss as a WAR). Tanks would clamour/demand for the return of hate management skills for other jobs again, and I would be doing the sme with the system you have brought forward. Hate management is the one part of tanking that is never/has never been 'fun' for anyone to deal with. It's an annoyance.

[Rongway]

Tanks should absolutely not have actions that spend enmity in exchange for increased damage. The rest of us have no enmity management actions anymore. Even back when we did have enmity management actions, I could use Diversion and Dreaming on cooldown and still steal aggro five minutes into a raid/trial. I shouldn't have to play my job worse in order to avoid getting killed, and that's what I'll have to do if tanks get actions to spend their enmity in exchange for more damage.