FFXIV seriously needs to Revamp the way pvp is played.

[Tokyozombie]

This isn't about class balance which is a whole different problem in itself. FFXIV's pvp is the most boring experiences out of all the MMO's I have played. the developers need to look into how other games do their pvp and use what works.

General problems
1. progression
PvP has no ranking system and gear was changed to have no stats. All stats were equalized in order to give all players an equal chance. Ranks should give titles, unique items, consumables etc. the point of ranks should be something to show off as much as unique items and titles you get from savage raids. if PvP gets popular you can even use it for matchmaking.
2. gear
there needs to be something to work for and pvp gear just being for glamour is enticing but its needs to be more. Bring back unique stats for pvp. These stats will make it so you can survive in pvp longer and deal more damage. pve gear should not effect pvp in anyway so someone coming in with savage gear shouldn't be on par with a fully geared pvper. when players have pvp sets the combat should be more equalized. This gear should not be locked behind ranked and essentially be the pvp version of gearing with tomestones for pve.

Frontline problems
1. Teams
My biggest problem with pvp ever since I started playing in 2.0. Teams need to be 1v1, and players need to be lowered down to about 16 per team. 24 players in a 72 player match makes my job feel like i'm pissing in an ocean. It is hard to keep track of anything i'm doing, and there is no teamwork. 1v1v1 teams is a huge problem where it makes every loss feel unfair and makes every win feel not deserved. pvp is a test of skill and throwing a wild card uncontrollable 3rd team is frustrating.
2. Maps
Almost all maps in frontlines are these giant open spaces with ramps that lead to platforms. The objectives are always an iteration of "stand in the location". This may be another problems of how large teams are but with 1v1 teams of 16 players each, this can be changed. Give us simplified modes such as capture the flag, capture points, attack and defend etc. maps that are multilevel and classes having various ways of travel is the most enjoyable and well designed maps i have played such as SWTOR's maps.

Feast problems
1. team compositions
without thinking of class balance, feast needs to be more open on team compositions and have 2v2 mode, 3v3 mode and 4v4 mode. As of now it's too constrained how the developers want you to play. another problem is the queues die shortly after the first weeks after a new season starts because rank decay doesn't exist.

PvP and PvE should be separate entities and it's a good choice to make sure combat is balanced differently. When PvP is popular it grows its own community and will cause queue times to be faster. but until then we can only play in prime time and in a very constrained boring format. I never ever write things like this so thanks for coming to my TED talk. Thank you.

[Esmoire]

2. gear
there needs to be something to work for and pvp gear just being for glamour is enticing but its needs to be more. Bring back unique stats for pvp. These stats will make it so you can survive in pvp longer and deal more damage. pve gear should not effect pvp in anyway so someone coming in with savage gear shouldn't be on par with a fully geared pvper. when players have pvp sets the combat should be more equalized. This gear should not be locked behind ranked and essentially be the pvp version of gearing with tomestones for pve.

Nah. I think aesthetic stuff is more than enough of a way to entice people. I think they should look at stuff less like stuff for Wolf Marks, and more towards other visual forms of prestige, like Feast mounts.

Frontline problems
1. Teams
My biggest problem with pvp ever since I started playing in 2.0. Teams need to be 1v1, and players need to be lowered down to about 16 per team. 24 players in a 72 player match makes my job feel like i'm pissing in an ocean. It is hard to keep track of anything i'm doing, and there is no teamwork. 1v1v1 teams is a huge problem where it makes every loss feel unfair and makes every win feel not deserved. pvp is a test of skill and throwing a wild card uncontrollable 3rd team is frustrating.
2. Maps
Almost all maps in frontlines are these giant open spaces with ramps that lead to platforms. The objectives are always an iteration of "stand in the location". This may be another problems of how large teams are but with 1v1 teams of 16 players each, this can be changed. Give us simplified modes such as capture the flag, capture points, attack and defend etc. maps that are multilevel and classes having various ways of travel is the most enjoyable and well designed maps i have played such as SWTOR's maps.

Hard disagree. FFXIV's PvP system has some problems at its core, though FL in of itself is a fine concept. 3 team dynamic is interesting, and solves a lot of design problems. For example, the comeback mechanics in FL are minimal, because psychologically it is not required, as the team in first place is more likely to be targeted, so it doesn't need something stupidly powerful like Brute Justice as an equalizer.

I am sorry but if you feel like your individual contributions are not enough, and it's too hard to track things, and you feel there is no teamwork, that is an individual performance issue. Statistically speaking, players should have about a 33%/33%/33% 1st/2nd/3rd rate for FL. However, myself and others are climbing towards 40% 1st rates, and I've been well below 30% 3rd place rates for a while. I don't say this to boast, but rather to say you actually have remarkable agency for your outcome in a game mode with 71 other people to think of. Take this from someone with about a thousand games in the mode: collaboration is huge, and I wouldn't get my winrates just by playing well. Sometimes people don't listen, sometimes your team has a lot of people who suck, though a good tactician makes the most of what they have available.

FL is a mode with 72 randomly matched players taking on semi-randomly placed objectives to create a fun and sometimes chaotic experience enough of us enjoy. I think it should be left as is, and if people want different experiences, they should create them. For example, bringing back 8v8 Feast, and rebranding it as a new mode. To support these things, the PvP daily challenge should either be expanded or it should dynamically choose a game mode based on participation numbers.

[ForteNightshade]

Nah. I think aesthetic stuff is more than enough of a way to entice people. I think they should look at stuff less like stuff for Wolf Marks, and more towards other visual forms of prestige, like Feast mounts.

Feast mounts have long been proven not to work considering they were introduced in 3.4 and PvP has only sunk further in activity over the years. Now that is due to a variety of reasons such as poor balance. Nonetheless, if mount rewards were enticing enough PvP wouldn't be on life support. The problem is when dangling a carrot, you have to make it reasonable. Most people see they have to rank top 100 and immediately dismiss the reward as impossible. Hence why it fails to entice. They could put Cash Shop items behind ranking in Feast and people still wouldn't touch it due to that exclusivity. Which I'll note is the only content in the game with that sort of function.

Hard disagree. FFXIV's PvP system has some problems at its core, though FL in of itself is a fine concept. 3 team dynamic is interesting, and solves a lot of design problems. For example, the comeback mechanics in FL are minimal, because psychologically it is not required, as the team in first place is more likely to be targeted, so it doesn't need something stupidly powerful like Brute Justice as an equalizer.

While it may be interesting, a three team dynamic often results in one team sandbagging once they have little chance of winning. This causes a massive imbalance since the team in first place can easily lose through no fault of their own. The last place team simply threw themselves at the second place team. This is precisely why FPS games and even other MMOs stick to the two team format.

If enough people enjoyed the 72 man experience, PvP wouldn't be on life support. Evidently, they don't. You're only see a spike in activity now due to the Moogle Tome event. When that goes away in 5.3, PvP will inevitably die out. SE needs to figure out something that will maintain a more long term interest.

[Esmoire]

Feast mounts have long been proven not to work considering they were introduced in 3.4 and PvP has only sunk further in activity over the years. Now that is due to a variety of reasons such as poor balance. Nonetheless, if mount rewards were enticing enough PvP wouldn't be on life support. The problem is when dangling a carrot, you have to make it reasonable. Most people see they have to rank top 100 and immediately dismiss the reward as impossible. Hence why it fails to entice. They could put Cash Shop items behind ranking in Feast and people still wouldn't touch it due to that exclusivity. Which I'll note is the only content in the game with that sort of function.

Yeah. I mean, I just used Feast mounts as an example of PvP rewards existing that are not tied to Wolf Marks. I could have also pointed to achievement mounts, which likewise have faults in their implementation, but they are enough to goad participation. On one side of the scale with almost anything you'll have some intrinsic rewards (fun, development, community involvement, etc.) and extrinsic rewards (mounts, in-game progression, etc.) versus resistance created by behavioural factors like intimidation or exclusivity, and they are all kind of things where it's enough to push people to do something based on how individuals weigh it. So, to look at PvE, MSQ roulette isn't really fun, but it has a big extrinsic reward and requires little effort, so people will do it.

I do think PvP needs to continue to improve adoption and finding ways to get people to try it, improve the experience for people already playing it, and look for fun kinds of progression, though I don't think any of those need to involve gear or perks that give you an advantage like OP suggested. In FFXIV, the one thing that is in the paragons of player interest next to progression, is aesthetics. Mounts, housing, glam, all 99% cosmetic and basically things that people will actively work towards and find fulfillment in. Just looking at the industry in general, you can be free to play but make billions upon billions on things that are ultimately aesthetic, if the core is fun enough. I think the inability for Feast mounts to make Feast as popular as some people would like is not a sign the idea doesn't work, so much as like you said there's too much weighed against it.

While it may be interesting, a three team dynamic often results in one team sandbagging once they have little chance of winning.

Really? Out of the near 1k matches I've played I haven't seen this that much. I'd honestly say most of the time people do try to still find something; people will sometimes say "just let them win", though they are more likely to get salty about not being able to make the comeback. Comebacks happen often, and people more often than not try.

Though sometimes, rarely, I do get those games.



Sometimes last place is stupid, and will home in on second place, and can be frustrating, and it happens enough, but I honestly don't feel most games don't go that way, at least on Primal.

This is precisely why FPS games and even other MMOs stick to the two team format.

That's not really fair to say, in such a young medium, with something as young as online multiplayer games with the scale we've had. We have to constantly experiment and try new things. Besides, I've seen weird team configurations work, like 3 or 4 teams in stuff like TFC, or games where everyone is on their own, both hugely successful products. FFXIV is a leading product, where they will constantly have to try new things and push boundaries, doing both what they know what works and what people want, as well as new experiences.

If enough people enjoyed the 72 man experience, PvP wouldn't be on life support. Evidently, they don't. You're only see a spike in activity now due to the Moogle Tome event. When that goes away in 5.3, PvP will inevitably die out. SE needs to figure out something that will maintain a more long term interest.

Ehhh. Again, this is conflating way too many ideas.

FL queues have been largely the same during the moogle tomestone event. Now, numbers will be a bit weird since we also just happen to have a lot of people at home since things are only now getting back into swing from the pandemic, but it speaks volumes that the queues for FL have been about the same when a PvP mode exists giving people an extrinsic reward. That means a significant number of people who like PvP would rather do FL, even when they are not getting moogle tomestones, because they like that kind of PvP.

Of course, like always, PvP queues kind of die out the further you get from prime time. I don't necessarily think that's a sign there is a problem with the idea of FL. However, I would say the fact RW can be stoked by this event is signs that people would be willing to enjoy smaller scale PvP experiences as long as they enjoy it... Which doesn't mean FL is at fault. I'd say it means they need to do something like a daily challenge for RW, or maybe design more smaller scale experiences that can get queues moving as our thin community numbers dwindle outside of peak hours, and give them proper support.

I will say the idea of FL is good, but I would not say it's perfect: there UI and UX are lacking, some of the maps could use some tweaks, and there's some balance/design issues with some of the jobs. I do think all three main forms of PvP have room for improvement, and FFXIV needs some fundamental changes to make PvP better across the board, though the general idea for the three modes seems to be solid enough. PvP community is relatively small percent of the playerbase, though I am not sure what kind of saturation people are hoping for. Endgame raiders in NA are a small %, serious crafters are a small %, Gold Saucer diehards are a small %, RPers are a small % (less so on Crystal), etc. As long as experiences are regularly improved and designed to a scope that works based on their anticipated interest it seems well enough, despite what cynics will claim. I think a lot of the disappointment from the more passionate players is they feel PvP can be so much more, and I'd agree with them.

[Tokyozombie]

There used to be a game called Dead island epidemic which was a class based moba game that featured 1v1v1 and it had the exact same problems. the difference was each team only had 4 people on it and just like frontlines it felt very frustrating to play because a lot of the times a team was put on farm or just got petty and angry and attacked a team for attacking them first or 2 teams attack someone making it a lost situation in the first place. the point is pvp is supposed to be skill based and if you lose due to something you absolutely can't control in anyway such as being attacked by 2 teams just isn't fun. lastly when vs 2 other teams and your team consists of 24 players its damn near impossible to communicate with them and move effectively. And I do use target indicators and chat function macros and it's still not enough.

I will say the idea of FL is good, but I would not say it's perfect: there UI and UX are lacking, some of the maps could use some tweaks, and there's some balance/design issues with some of the jobs. I do think all three main forms of PvP have room for improvement, and FFXIV needs some fundamental changes to make PvP better across the board, though the general idea for the three modes seems to be solid enough. PvP community is relatively small percent of the playerbase, though I am not sure what kind of saturation people are hoping for. Endgame raiders in NA are a small %, serious crafters are a small %, Gold Saucer diehards are a small %, RPers are a small % (less so on Crystal), etc. As long as experiences are regularly improved and designed to a scope that works based on their anticipated interest it seems well enough, despite what cynics will claim. I think a lot of the disappointment from the more passionate players is they feel PvP can be so much more, and I'd agree with them.

Whenever I played any other MMO be it WoW, SWTOR, Guild wars 2, Wildstar, Rift, destiny the main endgame options were PvE Gearing/raid, and/or PvP Gearing/rank. These are the two main things people play in MMO's and for some reason ff14 lacks the PvP side. PvP should not be unplayable after a certain time in the day because it sure wasn't in most of these other games.

[Esmoire]

There used to be a game called Dead island epidemic which was a class based moba game that featured 1v1v1 and it had the exact same problems. the difference was each team only had 4 people on it and just like frontlines it felt very frustrating to play because a lot of the times a team was put on farm or just got petty and angry and attacked a team for attacking them first or 2 teams attack someone making it a lost situation in the first place. the point is pvp is supposed to be skill based and if you lose due to something you absolutely can't control in anyway such as being attacked by 2 teams just isn't fun. lastly when vs 2 other teams and your team consists of 24 players its damn near impossible to communicate with them and move effectively. And I do use target indicators and chat function macros and it's still not enough.

Not a really fair comparison.

FFXIV actually had 8v8v8 FL, and it was not pretty for some of the same reasons that didn't work. Aside from the fact the maps weren't made for it at all and even as someone who liked PvP it made me not want to queue late at night, the thing about having 72 players is it kind of mitigates the need for matchmaking. When you have substantially fewer players (especially when people can play in parties), it becomes much more likely that by random odds there will be a noticeably uneven match, and when there are fewer bodies, it's much, much, much easier to tell the outcome ahead of time. It had much more people just AFKing or giving up, as it was much more predictable than 72 player.

Also, is this an alt? Says you just won your first match of FL yesterday. Congrats.

Whenever I played any other MMO be it WoW, SWTOR, Guild wars 2, Wildstar, Rift, destiny the main endgame options were PvE Gearing/raid, and/or PvP Gearing/rank. These are the two main things people play in MMO's and for some reason ff14 lacks the PvP side. PvP should not be unplayable after a certain time in the day because it sure wasn't in most of these other games.

I agree that FFXIV needs better support for PvPers at a greater range of times in a day. I don't think that means FL fundamentally has to change (though the maps/systems have room for improvement), though I do think the developer should allocate their limited PvP budget into providing a greater range of experiences. FL clearly has a big enough audience that loves it, if we are getting fast queues at prime time, and it can sustain itself. I think what they need to do is make more experiences outside of it. Much smaller, and maybe consider some staples like CTF.

If you look at just multiplayer games in general, there's an audience for Smash Bros who loves 4/8 player FFAs with items and all the stages. There's also people who just want to do 1v1 with no items and get serious about competitive integrity. Both are valid. Similarly, PvE FFXIV has random and wild stuff like Deep Dungeons or treasure maps, but also has something that is much more structured like raiding. FFXIV kind of has that. We have the random fun of FL on one side, and Feast on another, with RW in-between. IMO both FL and Feast could be improved, but they also need to work on that huge gulf between the two. Having a wider range of experiences to appeal to more PvPers, as well as to convince people intimidated by PvP to give it a chance and potentially adopt other modes, would help a lot with saturating participation. I think PvP in FFXIV can be salvaged, but hey have to earn the trust of the PvP community with better communication, more experiences, and better systems to encourage people to try it so that a bigger PvP community can be built.

[Tokyozombie]

Also, is this an alt? Says you just won your first match of FL yesterday. Congrats.

Definitely not an alt but thanks for trying to attack me instead of the argument.

If you look at just multiplayer games in general, there's an audience for Smash Bros who loves 4/8 player FFAs with items and all the stages. There's also people who just want to do 1v1 with no items and get serious about competitive integrity. Both are valid.

Smash wasn't created to be competitive. it was designed as a party brawler stated by the creator himself. the community made it competitive. PvP in MMO's are inherently made to be competitive not about random silliness. So this isn't a fair comparison.

it becomes much more likely that by random odds there will be a noticeably uneven match, and when there are fewer bodies, it's much, much, much easier to tell the outcome ahead of time. It had much more people just AFKing or giving up, as it was much more predictable than 72 player.

large portions of People afk in FL too just like large groups afk in alteric valley on WoW.
and if the groups were smaller its bound to happen to a small amount of people too but games have contingencies for things like this otherwise every other games pvp wouldn't work. and in the end games would be shorter so these are even less of a problem because you should just be able to re-queue and get into a game.

at the moment ff14 pvp is the lazy way out. games are big for no matchmaking, gear doesn't exist because they don't want to make a disparity between players, and classes are very similar in play style because class balance is hard.

[Esmoire]

Definitely not an alt but thanks for trying to attack me instead of the argument.

That was not an attack and genuinely trying to be encouraging. It showed the day for the achievement for your first win being yesterday. Maybe lodestone was just being weird.

I promise I am not out to get you, ha ha. In my 500 some posts here I have never gone out of a way to sarcastically attack someone or demean them, and I am not trying to say someone is wrong for the sake of me being right. Sorry if it came across that way.

Smash wasn't created to be competitive. it was designed as a party brawler stated by the creator himself. the community made it competitive. PvP in MMO's are inherently made to be competitive not about random silliness. So this isn't a fair comparison.

Ehhh. I think it was more an example on how a game can be made to cater to a wide range of experiences within the purview of its basic systems. i could have used fun modes in LOL as example, fun stuff in CS 1.6, whatever.

Also, your point... only works against you, because FFXIV is not a fundamentally competitive PvP game. PvP is very, very, very broad, and there's so much crazy stuff in all kinds of MMOs, and many more experiences developers can come up with as the medium continues to evolve. You say it's inherently competitive, though that would ask one to stipulate on what they mean by that. Like, a lot of early MMOs, you had just open lobby rooms where anyone can attack everyone. Going to modern systems, you have stuff like WoW where on a PvP server, you can be a low level character getting ganked by a party of people way stronger. They are all forms of PvP in successful MMOs. If you mean competitive integrity, where everything minimizes randomness, has matchmaking to get people fighting people with relevant skill level, well, FFXIV has that, and it's called Feast. It can also have other more random or chaotic experiences, just like WoW does. Or TERA does. Or Ragnarok Online. Or any number of MMOs that made a mark. They can coexist.

It's a rather casual themepark MMO that is just from a simple design fundamental level further from competitive play when the vast majority of experiences are designed for everyone to win, where Smash it at least designed for people to play other people with a respectable attempt at making AI for other experiences.

[Mistress_Irika]

PvP needs a few changes. As much as I would like to discuss it I cannot tl;dr all of this in. So I'll only bring up a couple of points.

Since 5.1 my solo experience for frontlines hasn't been that great, and I've been slowly getting demotivated to playing the game mode overall. Frontlines currently feels like a pve roulette to me. Despite the changes that has been made since then whether agreed on or not frontlines overall is fine. No immediate changes are needed. Players need to play and experience more. It's still quite sad that people would rather throw games when they're in last, especially in situations where the first 2 teams are neck and neck, the biggest question being asked about why both teams is ganging up on the losing team. Some players need to learn that this is a legit strategy to keep a contender out of a race, and they need to learn how not to get in that predicament, something that can't be learned overnight.
I believe that there needs to be a discussion as far as full party premades are concerned, but other than that frontlines has never been in a better position for the majority (not all).

Classes overall are great, the only question marks I'm personally throwing at the tanks in general. Even then, tanks aren't that bad. DRGs needs an adjustment on one of their abilities, and dancers might need a nerf on the amount of charges they can hold on their dashes.

As for trying to attract more people we need more smaller modes. Not everyone is a fan of feast, some people easily get discouraged as far as starting up frontlines are concerned, and without the Moogle event people need to plan for a day to just get together and play Rival Wings. The revival of the 8v8 feast has been resurfacing for a while now. That should be considered at least as well as a few other ideas surfacing like capture the flags for example.
24 man frontlines has been highly requested for a revival. However, that needs a discussion thread on it's own, as that mode has its own downfalls that is not really seen in 72 man.

[Nanne]

Ranking decay wont help cause the biggest problem Feast has is the lack of players. Right now in my data center platinum and diamond get matches every day but unranked to silver doesnt. If the mode cannot get 8 (Frontline gets 72 players after prime time easily) players in queue to have a match happen in the lower brackets I dont see how dropping the ratings of the top rated players will help with that. If you add ranking decay the people who usually stop at diamond will play 1 match every now and then having 0 impact in the lower brackets :P