Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[Awha]

How is asking at the start of the dungeon if everyone is fine with mass/small pulls resulting in GMs taking action?
I've done that quite alot and been in duties where others asked and we never got into an arguement or anything. People just say yes/no or big/small depending on how the question is worded. This takes like 20 seconds and everyone is on the same page afterwards.

I have ran into groups where someone asked for large pulls and started a similar debate as to what is going on here. This is why I normally try to avoid even talking in groups let alone request anything. Granted this normally happens when I am a dps and I just sit around waiting for the tank and healer to figure out what to do.

If I get titled I am also personally likely to say something I should not so for me it is not wise to do.

ive ran into the same df people multiple times. Also takes 0 effort to say: hi i plan on pulling x size, if we wipe my fault. Or tank mind pulling more? Ive been recused pulled in DD, it sucked as I was new, and it resulted in a wipe.

I mean is did say hardly ever, did not mean to imply it would never happen. Also a wipe is not the end of the world, I would not fsult or be upset if a tank tried and failed.

[Shalan]

I'm being combative about it because I think the fact that you think we now need to ask permission from a tank to do something that's been the basic standard for their role for years now is incredibly harmful to the game and its future.

We shouldn't have to keep lowering our standards over and over because some people are uncomfortable. As I stated before, if past lvl 60 you're still uncomfortable with pulling either larger groups, either stick to lower level content till you are or swap roles, tanking isn't for you. Period.
I don't care if that's insensitive, if you can't handle larger pulls by the time you're 60 and more experienced you need to get your shit together. That goes for healers and tanks.
This is an MMO, a team effort, not a single player game where you poor performance impacts just yourself. Carry your weight and put on your best display for the team or don't show at all.

And I've repeatedly stated that yes, communication should be the first action taken. If a player is uncomfortable playing in the routine/standard manner with larger pulls then the onus is on them to announce such and request smaller pulls. If I don't get that New Player's First Time in the Instance message at the start of a dungeon, I'm going to expect routine play, because that's the vast majority of what I'm going to see.

1) level does not mean experience. a level 80 can be new to the game, simply from buying a 2 jumps and doing all side quests, and having fc mates craft them lvl 80 gear.

If you're inexperienced at lvl 80 you're bad or intentionally not learning content (which still means you're bad). You should be taking the training wheels off by lvl 60 (imo 57 with the Vaults, but others seem to think 60 is the ideal). If you're in lvl 80 content and you don't know what you're doing that's paramount to griefing the rest of your party in my mind.

And jump potions aren't an excuse, if you're using a jump potion you're willingly and knowingly "jumping" ahead of the game and the experience it brings. It's on you to educate yourself about the game and it's culture. It's on YOU to either spend time in lower level content or wailing on a dummy for an hour, and reading up of guides to learn the game mechanics. If they're still uncomfortable after doing so then it's still on THEM to announce their discomfort to the party and request smaller pulls first.

The rest of the party shouldn't be expected to automatically assume every single person who comes their way is going to be performing sub-standard. If they do, then the new norm becomes that sub-standard play and we'll see continued degradation of the community skill level and the game as a whole.

[ForteNightshade]

doesn't matter if you considerate standard or not, you are with people who may/may not be new/ who may/may not know it is. Most of us should be adult, and act accordingly, rescuing people into more mobs is childish at best, trolling at worst. We are all capable of communication.

Neither Lucy nor anyone else considers it standard on an individual level. The majority as a whole do. This is why nearly every time you queue into Expert, the tank will wall pull. Even dungeons as low as 40 will frequently be wall pulled. That is the community standard. If you dislike that and want a slower run, it falls to you to ask not the party. If 90% of your dungeon experiences are wall pulling, why are you going to ask if wall pulls are okay?

No offense but based on your signature, you've only been playing since June of this year, yes? How can you determine what is and isn't community standard? You're taking a stance you lack the longevity to back up.

[Goji1639]

...

If everyone asks for big pulls the expectations become clear. If everyone just stays quiet because they assume the entire community is a hive-mind that agrees with them, then we end up with confusion and arguments. This is like a bad sitcom.

If someone's pulling small then there's probably a reason; apparently they didn't get the memo and figured it isn't a big deal. So, you just refuse to communicate with them? Go straight to being passive aggressive, harassing, whining, vote kicking? All because "I shouldn't have to ask; he should just KNOW!" like you're his nagging girlfriend? Ugh, this games community is absolutely terrible.

[AngelCheese77]

I would say, stop assuming the skill level of the players. There more players in a group then just a tank and healer. Pulling wall to wall is a group effort, that requires high skill, and understanding of the dungeon. Not every level 80 you see will know their job front to back or be vet players. Not all players in the group will know the dungeon front to back.

You can claim dungeons are dumb down FOR YOU only, you cant speak on the behalf of others. I have personally wiped trying to large pulls, due to the dps simply not being geared for it, or the healer not used to healing it. wall to wall pulling should NEVER be forced on players who are not ready, it ruins the fun of everyone.

One thing im starting to dislike is Meta is all or nothing in ff14, but there is 0 communication in game. People seem to despise it. Only times i had good large pulls as a healer were with my fc mate who made it known in advance. Not everyone looks up the forums, watches videos, or is in an fc. They may not know the meta is tanks pull boss to boss or nothing.

I also find it petty to DEMAND tanks NEED to pull wall to wall. i have done every dungeon from sastasha to stone vigil as both large and small pulls, i honestly do not notice that much of a time difference.

what I do notice as a tank, is healer rely on freecure trait a bit much and died to healers going Oom. I also notice as more and more fresh ppl join the game, i see no one really keeping gear up to date. Even a few fc mates noticed in higher level dungeons just ppl not upgrading their gear. Like one ran into a dancer with lvl 17 gathering gear in a dungeon called the aery.

lastly, people who are forcing the meta with a my way or the high way attitude under the guise of (but the other members of the party) are typically called a word starting with E. ff11 had a rule of friends do not let friend be an E. Communicate with your party so everyone is on the same page, never force your playstyle on others.

Just upvoting and quoting this post because it is my thoughts exactly. Gonna bold it as well.

[Awha]

If everyone asks for big pulls the expectations become clear. If everyone just stays quiet because they assume the entire community is a hive-mind that agrees with them, then we end up with confusion and arguments. This is like a bad sitcom.

If someone's pulling small then there's probably a reason; apparently they didn't get the memo and figured it isn't a big deal. So, you just refuse to communicate with them? Go straight to being passive aggressive, harassing, whining, vote kicking? All because "I shouldn't have to ask; he should just KNOW!" like you're his nagging girlfriend? Ugh, this games community is absolutely terrible.

Tbh I do not think anyone is advocating for zero communication. Just seems some people do not view non verbal communication as a valid form of communication.

Running ahead, pulling extra mobs, using rescue seems to denote a desire for larger pulls. Why must it be in the form of a verbal request?

[Goji1639]

Tbh I do not think anyone is advocating for zero communication. Just seems some people do not view non verbal communication as a valid form of communication.

Probably because non-verbal communication isn't effective. Clear. precise communication is the reason why language exists.

[Awha]

Probably because non-verbal communication isn't effective. Clear. precise communication is the reason why language exists.

Idk I think it is easy to understand what someone means when they run ahead of me jumping in place or pull extra mobs. Means I am going too slow, seems pretty effective to me. I think it is only ineffective if people assume the worse of the person and their initial reaction is they are trolling.

[Goji1639]

Idk I think it is easy to understand what someone means when they run ahead of me jumping in place or pull extra mobs. Means I am going too slow, seems pretty effective to me. I think it is only ineffective if people assume the worse of the person and their initial reaction is they are trolling.

Well, that's why non-verbal communication isn't very effective; it leaves things open to interpretation. Maybe you're trolling; maybe it was an accident; who knows. People assuming others can mind read their intentions seems to be part of the reason why communication in this game is so poor in general.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Just upvoting and quoting this post because it is my thoughts exactly. Gonna bold it as well.

Imagine thinking it takes anything remotely close to skill to wall-to-wall pull in dungeons. Just, imagine.