Just feels like bad design

[StrumerJohn]

Whether you like the way SCH or SMN are now or not, the way ARN transitions into them is bad design. Go show someone new the game and have them play ARN, learn the class, and then have to completely relearn either of its jobs.

[Mhaeric]

Whether you like the way SCH or SMN are now or not, the way ARN transitions into them is bad design. Go show someone new the game and have them play ARN, learn the class, and then have to completely relearn either of its jobs.

So you mean like whenever you change to any expansion job? Learning a job from scratch at level 30 isn't unique to SCH just because it has a base class that plays differently. Note that I'm not defending the 2 job for 1 class model here, just pointing out that this argument against it is quite flimsy.

Also, ACN = SMN. There's no relearning anything with that class to job transition.

[Billythepancake]

I'll never understand why SMN got to keep Physic, which is 100% useless on them, but SCH can't keep Miasma or bane, or any other ACN skill that would have been completely useful for them. "SMN needs to keep everything from ACN" Then so should SCH, they're both stemming from the class. It's not fair to pick favorites.

Or even better, they got to keep Titan, who was incredibly situational and overall very niche. But they got rid of Selene on SCH, because it was incredibly situational and niche.... Nice favoritism. SMN is worth putting work into and SCH isn't. Absolutely ridiculous if you ask me.

[Crushnight]

The Scholar transition from Arcanist is bad design and is wholly unique to Scholar as it is the only job to suffer this.

I'll use Whm and Ast to prove why the design of this transition as it currently stands is so awful.

Whm stems from Cnj nothing you learn as Cnj is lost upon transitioning, no minor skill like a 2nd DoT you had for 24 levels and definitely no major mechanic of the job lost (imagine if had lillies on Cnj but when you switched to Whm you lost them for 15 levels). Cnj's transition flows freely into Whm.

Ast requires to be able to go into the Pillars section of Ishgard, you can be any job so long as you meet this requirement, thus its design intention is wholly seperate from every other job/class.

Sch transition is trying to be both and this is why it is such bad design, you have to pick one, it cannot be wholly seperate if you have to level Arcanist to lv30 and complete its questline, it cannot be connected because it wants to spread its skills in its own way yet these skills are major mechanics of the job that was already learned by the Arcanist, and SE didn't pick one so I'm pointing out how badly the design of it looks.


Arbitrarily locking the major mechanic of aetherflow for 15 levels is bad design, Arcanist learned it at lv 18 a person playing Scholar learned how to use aetherflow for 12 levels they are just gated for whatever reason SE can come up with from their poop shoot for 15 unnecessary levels.

Sch and to a lesser extent Ast are the Prime examples i'd show the developers they need to really look at what skills they are placing and where and that maybe just maybe that drawing board needs a second look at.

[Gemina]

I don't think SCH getting its DPS guts ripped out had anything to do with it being one of two jobs to branch from the ACN class. But I do think it's a big part of the reason for the OPs gripes. What I do know is that after they eliminated the attribute point allocation and pre-SB Cleric Stance, the problems that existed with them being tied together were pretty much gone. Both jobs were fine at that point, and all they had to do to obtain this "separation" is through the skills they gain through their Aetherflow, and respective job gauges; with SCH's being more support focused, and SMN being more DPS focused.

Still, it probably would have been better if they each had their own class from the get go. It doesn't even seem like it was something they wanted to do at all. It seems more like a decision made based on time constraints, effectively giving SCH the short end of the stick from nearly the time of its inception. That's not official btw, just makes a hell lot of sense.

[Saefinn]

SCH: smartest job in the game
Also SCH: Is the only job in the game to straight up forget spells from its previous job.

It's really dumb. I fell in love with SCH because it was the closest thing this game had to a true healer/dps hybrid. Now I have nothing of the sort, all of the healers are just "stand in your corner and spam 1 button until someone gets a booboo so you can kiss it away"

And honestly, feeling like a healer/DPS hybrid is probably the best way they can do the job justice versus it in previous FF titles. Although /all/ healers technically DPS, but I see what you mean because it felt like it had a DPS rotation to it.

SCH issues: This is because they regret their decision to tie two jobs to one class, making it difficult to balance them as two distinct jobs. You should really just consider SCH an entirely seperate job that you simply unlock via the SMN questline. After all, you don't remember all your black magic spells when you switch to WHM, so why would you remember anything from SMN when you switch to SCH?

But I don't think it was a bad decision to have two jobs in one class. I see they're trying to separate them further to avoid many crossover abilities between them, however, it was fine TBH. Though what bugs me with it is that SMN is getting to keep its DoT aspect whilst it is taken away from SCH. The DoT mage aspect really suited SCH and not only that, but I think suited SCH better thematically than SMN, at least SCH has a history of DoT management (with FFXI's SCH, it was in helix spells and the abilities to enhance them) and this was a good throwback. Not only that, but there is a certain plague/disease element to SCH in XIV, obviously with leeches being a former spell, the Nymian plague in the SCH storyline, whereas SMN doesn't reference disease if I recall, rather it is inherited from Arcanist. I guess if they wanted to create any kinda of thematic and balance differences between SCH and SMN's versions, give SMN upgrades on their DoT's (might be cool to exploit a couple of Primal abilities in their upgrades) when they diverge, which we know they can do, because Biolysis is a SCH upgrade of Bio and SCH's Ruin upgrade is Broil whilst SMN gets another Ruin tier. It means they can keep SCH's versions weaker.

And even then, they've been moving away from a DoT focus on SMN anyway. Even then, why can't SMN and SCH remain counter parts to each other? After all they are separate roles.

[NobleWinter]

I definitely agree. SMN uses Energy Drain in a completely different way than ACN and it's jarring. SCH loses Aetherflow and Energy Drain altogether in the transition. It's just a really weird jump into either job. You're definitely right that no one else gets a job stone and suddenly has to relearn what their abilities do up to that point or wonder where they went. The Jobs typically build on the base Class in a way that's intuitive and natural but ACN just breaks all the rules of convention.

[HeulGDarian]

The AST thing is baffling. I mean it took two expansions for them to get an AoE pre 50, so hopefully they fix the Sect issue in 6.0. It initially looked like they didn't want to shuffle skills around too much, but with how they did a mass shuffle in Shadowbringers hopefully that means they can make more sense of skills that once had a reason to be where they were, like Diurnal Sect, but now are just there for the Lulz.

The SCH situation makes some sense, since they were trying to "separate" the two jobs moreso, but it has it's own issues now. Dont get me wrong some of the changes were good/nice. SMN doesn't need Aetherflow like SCH does, merging it with Energy Drain and adding Energy Siphon was a good move. Along with moving Fester to a lower level. Since many people said level 50 SMN was just Arcanist with Fester. Well now ACN has Fester, lol. But at the same time removing Energy Drain from SCH was dumb. It would of been okay had you replaced it with another stack spender, but that was just bad planning.

The Egi Assaults were a good move too, as it finally made each summon viable for it's own purpose, instead of just pick the one you want. I will say though it is annoying on SCH that I dont have Whispering Dawn prior to level 20 unlike before. I have no AoE on SCH pre 20 now. I know low level healing is meh, but sometimes my party is just that... uh... "danger prone" lol

I feel they need to make more skills that appear similar for both jobs, but function towards each ones specialty, like Aetherpact and Summon Bahamut/Seraph. Plus some skills thematically suit the other job better than the one they are on. The poisons fit SCH better. And while Dissipation is "better" than what it was, it would make more sense for SMN.

Maybe I can organize a list yo keep myself busy. Got nothing but down time anyway, lol

Yes smn does need aetherflow, no it was a terrible move to merge energy drain with aetherflow.

[HeulGDarian]

I feel like i need to say some stuff. Cause sch thinks smn has favouritism over them. First of all we re both screwed this expansion, what i wrote to the comment above, smn needs aetherflow now that is removed for this stupid energy drain everything is uncordinated and clunky and for the most part work against each other. Who knew that a building drops if you break its foundation.

Something that triggered me was the acn breaks every conventional logic. Am i the only one Who has looked outside the window? Do people never heard of godamn specialists? Do you think that a diagnostician, a disease researcher and a surgeon not go through the same med school first before branching out?

Having the Jobs branch out from 1 class was the best thing they could have done imo. Its unique, its interesting and it allows for a better history behind it. What other class is involved with the ascians, the allagans, the spawns, the primals and the nyms. As for why smn kept miasma something that sch should also get along with all the other abilities the dumb heal overhaul removed that went with if dps is too boring People Will definetely heal more is cause while bio does afflictions miasma Just blocks the enemys aether.

Yes i did have to search Hard for that piece of info. The biggest problems with the Jobs isnt that they try to remove them from each other, its that people are giving affirmation to it. Its 2020 and there are still People asking to seperate the 2 Jobs.

[HeulGDarian]

Also another problem is and here i am going towards the summoner side, Peoples blind nostalgia, complete apathy for learning stuff, and mind boggling demand not only for nerfs on anything remotely Hard but also removals of anything niche or situational as well as anything that is easy game play with the logic this one Ball is easy to juggle that means juggling 2 balls is as Hard as 3, for example the aggro management and worst of all asking over and over to get the rewards for completing challenging stuff or goodness forbid some Light grind for free.

I keep saying this even though this is something i wont ever notice in game. Ff14 isnt league of legends kind of toxic but it is toxic its like my kid brother Who is moms favourite asks her to play the game i play only for it to delete my save that i had 100% and it only needed to redo the final boss to get the secret ending.