Combining some buttons into one

[ForteNightshade]

wouldnt collapsing certain skills to a single button (either as a toggle or an autocombo) free up more hotbar room for things to be added to a class, presumably to increase depth elsewhere and make classes "less dumb"?

In theory, yes. However, you're kidding yourself if you think they'll add 6-8 new abilities in 6.0 for Dragoon. oGCDs are also used far less than GCDs. So unless they were to add more combos, you'll wind up pressing the same one or two keys more than anything else. Finally, people who typically bring up combo consolation don't want more abilities but less. All in all, what we'll end up with is something closer to PvP which is a big reason so many people are against combo consolation. Pressing 1234 may not be more skillful but it does feel better than pressing 1111. At least it does for me.

[Limonia]

I think we already had a few threads about the combo merge subjects. It's kind of controversial, as some people are for it, some are against it.

Of course it would reduce button bloat as well, but it wouldn't even help jobs that don't use combos, like casters and healers.

So I thought I'd suggest combining some abilities, like SMN/Bahamut or the Ley Lines thing. It wouldn't be such a big change, and 1 button less per job (or 2 at max) wouldn't make the game simpler, just improve QoL without changing too much.

[Drakeos]

This would save so much time due to people may have developed carpal tunnel

[Rasikko]

This would save so much time due to people may have developed carpal tunnel

I'm thinking I'm starting to get that now..

[SamRF]

Personally would rather have more buttons than less. Those suggestions you made do make sense in some way but I still prefer them to be separate buttons. Imo having them seperate is more fun, engaging and immersive since then your button is reserved for a specific action/command, I don't consider summoning something the same as commanding your summon to do something, thus having separate buttons makes more sense to me and I enjoy it more this way.

The earthly star comparison isn't really a good one imo immersion wise since there you basically cast something that doesn't do anything on its own. It's dormant until time goes by or you trigger the ability, here it makes sense that it would be the same button you'd tap for it to trigger.

The button bloat-ish combat is something that's atm fairly unique about FFXIV and it's a big reason why I prefer this game over other major MMOs.

[MariaArvana]

Personally would rather have more buttons than less. Those suggestions you made do make sense in some way but I still prefer them to be separate buttons. Imo having them seperate is more fun, engaging and immersive since then your button is reserved for a specific action/command, I don't consider summoning something the same as commanding your summon to do something, thus having separate buttons makes more sense to me and I enjoy it more this way.

The earthly star comparison isn't really a good one imo immersion wise since there you basically cast something that doesn't do anything on its own. It's dormant until time goes by or you trigger the ability, here it makes sense that it would be the same button you'd tap for it to trigger.

The button bloat-ish combat is something that's atm fairly unique about FFXIV and it's a big reason why I prefer this game over other major MMOs.

The thing is, combining those buttons can still lead to more intriguing gameplay. If the devs want to keep the button count within a certain range, dead skills that serve no purpose outside of niche uses that could just as easily be merged with other skills block actually unique and rotation-enhancing skills from being added.

Like, between the lines can't be used outside of when Leylines is active, so whats the point of it being a separate button? leylines just went on CD to even use between the lines, so its not like its blocking you from using Leylines again. Merge the two, free up a button slot, then add something interesting in its place that enhances the job further.

Geirskogul <---> Nastrond is one of the best ways they've implemented it and it should be standard across all skills that have their effects locked behind the use of another skill. (Req -> Confitteor, Death flare + Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix being all one button due to mutual exclusivity, all three parts of Gnashing fang being condensed to a single button so it's two buttons instead of 4, etc, the list could go on for a while.) Given that the alternative is that they straight remove stuff to fit their button criteria, condensing keeps all the skills around while allowing new skills to enter the fray, while also keeping the button count the same.

[SamRF]

The thing is, combining those buttons can still lead to more intriguing gameplay. If the devs want to keep the button count within a certain range, dead skills that serve no purpose outside of niche uses that could just as easily be merged with other skills block actually unique and rotation-enhancing skills from being added.

Like, between the lines can't be used outside of when Leylines is active, so whats the point of it being a separate button? leylines just went on CD to even use between the lines, so its not like its blocking you from using Leylines again. Merge the two, free up a button slot, then add something interesting in its place that enhances the job further.

Geirskogul <---> Nastrond is one of the best ways they've implemented it and it should be standard across all skills that have their effects locked behind the use of another skill. (Req -> Confitteor, Death flare + Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix being all one button due to mutual exclusivity, all three parts of Gnashing fang being condensed to a single button so it's two buttons instead of 4, etc, the list could go on for a while.) Given that the alternative is that they straight remove stuff to fit their button criteria, condensing keeps all the skills around while allowing new skills to enter the fray, while also keeping the button count the same.

Good argument and I might be okay with it if it meant we'd get more unique buttons and job mechanics, but not sure I'll enjoy this as much in practice as I'd think right now.

The immersion aspect will still be violated and it's a line which hasn't been crossed yet, and maybe devs want to keep it this way out of having a principle and logic in place. I don't know what Geirskogul is, but looking it up I'm assuming it's like SMN Fountain of Fire and Brand of Purgatory from the Fire Bird trance. How I interpret that, is that this stance you go into transforms some of your current abilities into a more powerful one which makes sense from an immersion perspective, it's the same ability and does the same thing essentially but it's a more powerful version, due to the stance you're in.
Enkindle isn't like that since it's a seperate action that doesn't have anything to do with the summoning button, it's giving a command for an attack which doesn't summon it, while the alternating between Phoenix summon and Bahamut summon does make sense since you're doing the same thing for both actions but just a different version.

Again, I think devs consider this immersion principle and haven't been willing to violate it so far (maybe to avoid slippery slope?). It's easy to neglect immersion and having a sort of logic to your abilities when you still have it, but I think violating this would for some make the rotation feel less satisfying and less immersive than they'd think it would beforehand. It may also get more confusing if you're changing too many buttons into dual action and dual purpose. Some perhaps also value there being set "principles" instead of inconsistent change in structure and ability function.

To also respond to your remark about PLD and to give another example: I enjoy the fact of Confiteor being a seperate button because it feels more like a standalone and real (powerful) ability you get to tap every now and then, and feel good about it. While if it would just become a replacement for Requiescat when you're in that window, I'm sure it wouldn't feel as special just tapping that button again to get this Confiteor, while also considering that it's a different ability from Req in terms of function, so for that reason it'll also be illogical and thus perhaps less satisfying to me. Maybe it's silly and maybe it's nonsense since it's difficult to convey what I mean, but try to consider it.

[MariaArvana]

snip

The thing is, immersion shouldn't get in the way of good game design, ever, or you're just asking for clunky systems. (1.0 with its 'rested exp' system trying to be immersive as an example...lol)

Also they kinda busted immersion for AST considering the cards no longer do the effects that they do in the lore (all cards give damage, where in the lore the Bole enhances defenses, etc), so they've shown they can violate it if it leads to more balanced gameplay. WAR also no longer uses its inner beast to protect others and enhance its defenses like in the lore, its just a straight damage move now.

I brought up the enkindles and deathflare because its just a simple exclusivity thing. You can't ever use enkindle bahamut without having first used and gone through Dreadwrym Trance. Thus Deathflare is just button bloat for the sake of it. I'd go one step further and say Dreadwrym Trance, Deathflare, Summon bahamut, enkindle bahamut, Firebird Trance & Enkindle Phoenix could all literally be the same button since you need to use the one ahead of it in order to reach the next. 6 skills that could literally all occupy the same space, and yet occupy 4x as many buttons than they need to.

If you want to go off immersion however, it makes sense on that front too. You start in Dreadwrym Trance, unleashing your aethertrail to use Deathflare, which then enhances your trance to allow you to summon bahamut, which in turn allows you to summon Phoenix. A natural progression of power. Since you also brought up fountain of fire & brand of purgatory, those two could also occupy the same button. brand of purgatory is stronger than Fountain of fire so there's no reason you're using Fountain of fire x2 in a row, so you could just make ruin 3 turn into fountain of fire, then have Brand of prugatory replace fountain of fire under hellish conduit instead of having to know where your outburst button is just to continue it. (Also since you can't even use Brand of Purgatory without using Fountain of fire first, its just clunky to put them on different moves.)

I won't comment on the last bit since that's just opinion based, but my opinion is that its just clunky. When I'm doing my rotation, I don't feel any special attachment or emotion to using some super skill, I see it as just part of the rotation and move on. the benefit here being that Confitteor on top of Req means I can move another ability to my first hotbar for a more relaxed and engaging flow of my rotation vs having to manage more hotbars than necessary due to uneeded button bloat.

[SamRF]

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You're defining immersion completely different here though and I might have used the word "immersion" wrong, and maybe I didn't do a good enough job of explaining what I meant in previous post.

Again, you are suggesting to transform buttons into an ability that is functionally different than the one before it. In that way it doesn't make sense for the "summon" button to be the same as "enkindle" button. Backstory and lore has nothing to do with this, simply the logic and structure of the abilities (I realize "immersion" isn't a good word for it). AST cards have absolutely nothing to do with ability design, it's lore, and that has nothing to do with my argument, I didn't mean that kind of immersion, more the type of immersion that makes your abilities feel more real, structured and logical (don't focus on semantics, but try to understand what I mean, maybe reread my previous post with this in consideration).

It will definitely come down to opinion and we'll likely have to agree to disagree in the end, but I just don't want there to be misunderstanding of what I mean.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Req -> Confitteor,

Requiscat -> Confiteor would not work as one is an ogcd and the other is a gcd. It would be stupidly easy to use Requiscat, push 1 to many times and buffer in Confiteor before you can cast Holy Spirit/Holy Circle/Clemency accidentally killing the Paladin's burst phase.