We should get exp boost in the game.

[TinkerTech]

After 13 pages of discussion, the core argument I'm seeing is "I came from WoW knowing that this game was not like WoW, but I don't like it and I would rather it be like WoW. Let me skip the essential part of the game so I can be level 80 and blow stuff up without any effort or money spent on my part." Versus "The Story is an essential part of the game, and by allowing players to skip that you not only lose critical understanding of the plot, but may possibly lower player retention when there is less content to keep them occupied."

As a amateur writer, I want to say that anyone invested in a game, book or movie wants to know one thing: What happens next? It's the reason we all come back every patch and expac. If we divorce the story from the gameplay, make it optional.... why do we come back? Because of a new dungeon or raid? If there's no reason for us to be invested in it (I.e. the story) then why should we care? Sure, new content is fun to play through, but if I don't have any reason to invest in it I'd rather go play another game. The story gives us that investment.

I confess I'm not a WoW player, so I don't know how Blizzard sets up their expansion packs and update content. Do they have 'patches' between expacs that continue to improve on current content, or add new dungeons? Or is it a one-time purchase of an expac and that's it for two/three years? If it's the latter, and with optional investment in the story, I can see why player retention would drop dramatically once the new content is broken in. SE does a marvelous job of not only updating and improving, but adding new content even between expacs. It's another thing that keeps us coming back.

I have one last question for the OP; What's keeping you here? I don't say it in a mean way, I'm genuinely curious. If you're that adamant that you would rather have a WoW experience and would clearly be happier playing an MMO more like WoW, what about XIV's Content is keeping you invested in this game?

[PyurBlue]

I actually had this exact experience once in ff11. Abyssea just dropped and people dropped the group/ camp play style and doing story as you go to leech to cap and solo the story. I didnt want to play like that, but the meta was leech to cap... solo story. When i tried joining LS to find ppl to play with i was told leech to cap/ solo story.

I'm not familiar with 11 so I don't totally understand the scenario you're explaining. Playing the story cooperatively was an option (there were no FF14 like solo duties?) but no one wanted to participate? Did 11 have any kind of match making like Duty Finder? Was the story repayable in any way?

In the case of FF14 having a bypass MSQ option, I don't see interest in the story suddenly disappearing. The players interested in the story would still be drawn to the game for that reason. Those players at the endgame also have incentives to participate in MSQ content, though this might need to be re balanced if it was possible to go directly to the endgame. I'm not sure what exactly would be the best solution, but I can see something like a limited number of roulette bonuses that would make it really worthwhile for a fresh level cap character to go back and queue in DF in their spare time. The point with skipping to endgame isn't to ignore the rest of the game but to remove the huge time sink you need to get there.

when stuff is the meta , it is considered law. Like currently the meta is pull big regardless. In my first dungeon as a fresh tank, a healer tried pressuring me to pull more then i was ok with. I even asked him to stop, he tried to pick a fight. I felt i had to leave, as i was what the group wanted.

From my own experience I can't agree with this. Not many people really seem to care how you play until maybe you get to EX or Savage. A story like yours will happen every now and then but I don't see it often. I've gone back and replayed through the game on new characters and some party members have genuinely thought I was a new player because of the sprout icon and having only one class. In one case I ended up outleveling one of the early dungeons as a tank and when I was level synced I had my stance turned off. I didn't notice until it was pointed out, but no one was really bothered by it.

Big pulls are considered the norm, but I do see tanks/healers asking what people are comfortable with. Not everyone, but likewise that means that not everyone demands huge pulls, or kicks.

All of that is actually kind of a side point though because in the situations where people do care it's because they feel they're losing out on something. In the case of a tank pulling small, it's that they're missing out on time. How someone goes through the story won't affect them, so I don't see why they would care.

If you make something optional... people will choose to skip it, and not touch it. Leaving those who do want to engage SoL. ff14 has group story content, such as dungeons and trials. how do we put booties in seats if it is optional and people skip it.

If that was the case, why are there side quests in the game? People do optional content already. In fact the endgame could be considered optional content as tome farming through Expert roulette will pretty much prepare you for anything. FF14 does have group MSQ content, but we have the roulette system to fill queues already. Endgame players are already incentivized to queue. The reward would only need a bit of tweaking if more people were jumping to endgame.

ALSO. the 1-50 content from what i notice is a tutorial. it teaches you stuff you can do in game, like leve quests, trials, dungeons, grand company, job quests etc. I wish hall of novice wasnt optional.. as people skip it, and end up not understanding their party role. Bad enough people treat group mates like npc.

It's a bit of a haphazard tutorial though. I don't think this game really has any place for new players to go and learn about things in depth except the Novice Network. Hall of the Novice is at worst factually incorrect or at best ambiguous on a few things. It's also not really representative of how people actually tend to play. I see it as something that helps gear up new players. Maybe it explains roles to them if they're not familiar with healer/tank/DPS. A one time lesson that only covers the very basics is useful, but in the long run not terribly influential.

It is an assumption, but its a plausible one because we see this trend in MMOs that operate more like WoW than FFXIV in regards to a story based system. You need to consider how the game's core design and player base pressure new players to do certain things. What you see in MMOs like WoW is new players are encouraged to power through content to get to end game. Low to mid level content is over experienced. You dont even get through all of an xpac or area before jumping to the next xpac areas. This is further reinforced by player attitudes - "Fun happens when you get to current content. Just power through everything else. You can read about it later." Almost all questlines in WoW are optional...and most of them are left undone and bypassed by a large swath of the newer players in their efforts to 'catch up' and 'get to the fun.'

FF14 has a different playerbase though. Changing how the MSQ works isn't going to suddenly generate a flood of people saying to skip it. From how you describe WoW it also seems like skipping isn't really optional, everyone given boosts and expected to skip content by design. This doesn't have to be implemented into FF14. Whatever boost of skip is needed to bypass the MSQ could be placed behind an option that the player needs to activate. This is something that I already see people request for the Road to 70 buff. Some players love it, some would rather level more slowly. I think adding a toggle for it would be great.

I feel this has two knock on effects: You create a bit of a disconnect between older and newer players, as the only thing they can kind of bond over or understand is current content. Old timer players know about things like Barrens Chat and mankrik's wife. Newer players dont know jack about that except if its explained to them, seen the memes, or the devs give you an 'easter egg' so you feel like you can be a part of the joke. But it's not the same as experiencing that first hand. Youre not in on that cause you never went through it.

This is only the case if the new players don't go through the MSQ, but I guess there is disagreement on whether they would or wouldn't.

The other knock on effect is if you train your player base to prioritize "get to end game to have fun", they will expect just that. So you will need to divert resources away from things like MSQ and minimize it for the sake of "Get to end game for fun." It changes the focus of the game from the journey and story to get to the raids and end dungeons. I think this model has it's strengths, but I do not think that it will be beneficial to content like FFXIV. Rather I think it will actually damage the game long term.

Again this isn't about getting to the endgame, it's about choice. If this is a concern, the option to activate the skip could be accompanied with an explanation stating that MSQ is the intended play path.

Pick your MMOs by what you want: If you want an MMO where you pick and choose what you do and its like a buffet that revolves around whats most fresh, WoW is a solid place for that. If you want an MMO thats more about the journey and story focused, FFXIV is where its at. Two different models that have two different core focuses.

I don't really know much about WoW, so there isn't much I can say about it. I'm only making suggestions for FF14 since I like it enough to invest my time in it. I absolutely understand that games don't have to universal appeal. That can end up being disastrous if everyone only gets 25% of what they actually want. MSQ skip isn't one of those cases, or at least I don't see it that way. Instead I feel like it's something that would improve FF14 specifically.

I also understand that it's SE's game. They don't have to listen to me, but if I'm interested enough to pay to post on this forum I think it's only to be expected that I share my opinions (and I'm saying this not because you come across as antagonistic to the expression of opposing opinions, but to explain my point of view).

There is very little unifying player experience at low to mid levels. And htats fine. Again, focus is important. WoW decided its all about whats hot and new, the old stuff is just a formality at best. FFXIV is about the journey, play through the entire experience from lvl 1 to lvl 80, and then 80 has things to do once you get there (like any MMO).

WoW isn't my target. I haven't seen anything from that game that has interested me enough to play it. That's not because it's a bad game, I just haven't been drawn into it. I'm not looking to make FF14 about what's only hot and new, and to be honest I feel like that is a fitting description of how this game works sometimes. I miss old content that gets abandoned, or nerfed, or loses its flavor as classes are continually updated. I'm very interested in a journey that spans a vast time range and that I can share with other players. Putting the MSQ ahead of everything hasn't contributed to that in my case. Maybe things would have been different if I wasn't late to the game and MSQ wasn't continually in the way of playing with friends, or if the lower level content was more interesting to play, or if ARR was more like HW. The story itself wasn't the problem, it was the game trying to dictate priorities and getting it wrong nearly every time.

In any case it's still SE's game and they can and should do what they want. I'm just putting forth my suggestions and someone enjoying the game.

[Xtrasweettea]

I'm not familiar with 11 so I don't totally understand the scenario you're explaining. Playing the story cooperatively was an option (there were no FF14 like solo duties?) but no one wanted to participate? Did 11 have any kind of match making like Duty Finder? Was the story repayable in any way?

In FFXI, there is no DF or PF. If you wanted to group for something, you had to either:

• /shout in a zone that had a good amount of population and get /tells in response.
• Inquire your Linkshell
• Wait in the popular town zones with your "Looking for Party" flag up and add to your comments the purpose and what you can offer.

So, for example if I wanted to get EXP, I had to set up an exp party with the purpose of killing enemies that are high enough level for me to kill and to get EXP efficiently. Enemies were not really solo-able in FFXI (with the exception of two jobs being able to efficiently) A level 75 Rabbit can solo a level 75 PLD. So you had to group to get EXP.

Eventually they added some quicker ways to get EXP: such as repeatable hunt books that gave you EXP when you killed X enemies. When they added Abyssea, that was the best EXP/hr you could get. Abyssea has many similarities to Eureka, but didn't have an independent leveling system. Quests (main story and side) did not grant EXP until quests that were part of the last expansion were added.

Also, there were no instanced dungeons minus a few instanced dungeons that had limitations for access (either number of times for entry, length of stay, or both). Those dungeons also didn't grant EXP.

The story-line for FFXI, most people solo'd most of it as possible and only grouped when they were forced to. Unlike the FF14 MSQ, there weren't that many instances that required grouping up. This practice was done prior to Abyssea coming out.

Story is not re-playable, unless you do the forced group content with people who are doing it for the first time. There's no benefit nor reward for almost all of the main storyline quests... maybe some paltry gil.

[Sauteed]

In FFXI, there is no DF or PF. If you wanted to group for something, you had to either:

• /shout in a zone that had a good amount of population and get /tells in response.
• Inquire your Linkshell
• Wait in the popular town zones with your "Looking for Party" flag up and add to your comments the purpose and what you can offer.

So, for example if I wanted to get EXP, I had to set up an exp party with the purpose of killing enemies that are high enough level for me to kill and to get EXP efficiently. Enemies were not really solo-able in FFXI (with the exception of two jobs being able to efficiently) A level 75 Rabbit can solo a level 75 PLD. So you had to group to get EXP.

Eventually they added some quicker ways to get EXP: such as repeatable hunt books that gave you EXP when you killed X enemies. When they added Abyssea, that was the best EXP/hr you could get. Abyssea has many similarities to Eureka, but didn't have an independent leveling system. Quests (main story and side) did not grant EXP until quests that were part of the last expansion were added.

Also, there were no instanced dungeons minus a few instanced dungeons that had limitations for access (either number of times for entry, length of stay, or both). Those dungeons also didn't grant EXP.

The story-line for FFXI, most people solo'd most of it as possible and only grouped when they were forced to. Unlike the FF14 MSQ, there weren't that many instances that required grouping up. This practice was done prior to Abyssea coming out.

Story is not re-playable, unless you do the forced group content with people who are doing it for the first time. There's no benefit nor reward for almost all of the main storyline quests... maybe some paltry gil.

And I absolutely loved the game. Took me almost a solid year to hit my first 75.
Abyssea killed XI for me. Made a lot of good friends. I still have my account, I get on it here and there, but it's pretty well a sunken ship for me.

[Yue_Amariyo]

In FFXI, there is no DF or PF. If you wanted to group for something, you had to either:

• /shout in a zone that had a good amount of population and get /tells in response.
• Inquire your Linkshell
• Wait in the popular town zones with your "Looking for Party" flag up and add to your comments the purpose and what you can offer.

So, for example if I wanted to get EXP, I had to set up an exp party with the purpose of killing enemies that are high enough level for me to kill and to get EXP efficiently. Enemies were not really solo-able in FFXI (with the exception of two jobs being able to efficiently) A level 75 Rabbit can solo a level 75 PLD. So you had to group to get EXP.

Eventually they added some quicker ways to get EXP: such as repeatable hunt books that gave you EXP when you killed X enemies. When they added Abyssea, that was the best EXP/hr you could get. Abyssea has many similarities to Eureka, but didn't have an independent leveling system. Quests (main story and side) did not grant EXP until quests that were part of the last expansion were added.

Also, there were no instanced dungeons minus a few instanced dungeons that had limitations for access (either number of times for entry, length of stay, or both). Those dungeons also didn't grant EXP.

The story-line for FFXI, most people solo'd most of it as possible and only grouped when they were forced to. Unlike the FF14 MSQ, there weren't that many instances that required grouping up. This practice was done prior to Abyssea coming out.

Story is not re-playable, unless you do the forced group content with people who are doing it for the first time. There's no benefit nor reward for almost all of the main storyline quests... maybe some paltry gil.

not all of this is accurate, as the story is repeatable when you switch city state alliances. And only reason abyssea stuff was best exp/hr is do to most you had to do was afk all day while in an alliance while 4 ppl chained kill mobs. It sounds like you joined the game latter in its lifecycle, but the base story, zilart, and chains had a lot of group content outsided the forced instance content.

such as getting the yag keys, and certain city state quests that had you go into a beast men strong hold.

[Anienai]

I'm not familiar with 11 so I don't totally understand the scenario you're explaining. Playing the story cooperatively was an option (there were no FF14 like solo duties?) but no one wanted to participate? Did 11 have any kind of match making like Duty Finder? Was the story repayable in any way?

FFXI put hair on your chest if you wanted it or not.

[Yue_Amariyo]

I'm not familiar with 11 so I don't totally understand the scenario you're explaining. Playing the story cooperatively was an option (there were no FF14 like solo duties?) but no one wanted to participate? Did 11 have any kind of match making like Duty Finder? Was the story repayable in any way?

sorry for late reply, had a post limit.

Before the abbysea content pack changed it, ff11 was very much a group oriented MMO. from lvl 10+ most the exp you would get group based camp parties, where you farm mobs to level up. The story line was not forced on you, but you had to do it to unlock various content the game had to offer, as well as to rank up with in your city-state to earn gear. If you did the story quest AT LEVEL, it was best done as a group, max group size being 6 players. There were some instance content that required a group, like the dark wyrm fight where you had to fight a dragon dragon, and arhimen boss. And a notable fight with the base games villain the shadow lord. Completing the base game granted you access to the instance endgame raids, the dynamis. Which was each city state zone, but in a dark world and full ob mobs.

After the abyssea content pack dropped SE decided to remove the level sync on such fights, and with abyssea content made level obsolete (you would go the new zone and join an alliance and go AFK the rest of the day as you got exp).

what happen to me was, I played the game for 6-7 years, took a year off to try WoW, and came back just after the content pack dropped. I started fresh, and tried joining various linkshells to meet people. When asking for groups to level up in, i was told to unlock the abby (what we called it) and just leech level. I Was bullied when i said, that isn't how I like to level. After getting level 25 solo, I asked for a group to do the dragon fight, was promptly told just leech to max level and solo the fight. When i said i do not want to do that, was told too bad and deal with it. I tried to play the game with out doing much. got some jobs to lvl 80/90 due to leech groups in dungeons.. after that I quit and stop playing MMO due to the ones on the market didnt appeal to me, or having tried them and dislike how the game was.

I rather not see ff14 become what happen to ff11 once abyssea dropped. And i fear that might happen if too much stuff is left optional... I do not want to get told to get level to max, and undersize all the instance content by myself.


also yes the story for the base game of ff11 was repeatable if you chance your city state alliance, each city state had its own story up to, and past the shadow lord fight.