Does Square intend to address Market botting?

[Jojoya]

I find it almost impossible to believe that anyone would think cheating is "good for the game" in any sense.

maybe its just me but usually thats a red flag.

these people use 3rd party software, to automate processes so they can essentially... not play the game and gain real life monetary benefits if they are into RMT. how is this good in any way except for them?

I don't think he's saying that cheating is good for the game. He's saying low marketboard prices are good for the game.

Most players aren't going to care why the prices are low. They're just going to take advantage of them.

You had talked last week about deliberately trying to crash prices to mess up the bots and I was seriously thinking about offering to help not because I thought it would do anything about the bots (I know it wouldn't) but because it would lower the prices to get the items into the hands of more players. I've got plenty of gil so very thin profit margins aren't a concern.

On the other hand, most of those stacks of cheap mats on the MB are probably bot source so it would just serve to help the bots after all. It's why I tend to stick to doing most of my own gathering and only buy the odd stacks I see listed on the MB when I'm too lazy to gather but the quantities needed for what you wanted to do would be prohibitive for just two, or even 20, players to get.

[Kes13a]

I don't think he's saying that cheating is good for the game. He's saying low marketboard prices are good for the game.

Most players aren't going to care why the prices are low. They're just going to take advantage of them.

You had talked last week about deliberately trying to crash prices to mess up the bots and I was seriously thinking about offering to help not because I thought it would do anything about the bots (I know it wouldn't) but because it would lower the prices to get the items into the hands of more players. I've got plenty of gil so very thin profit margins aren't a concern.

On the other hand, most of those stacks of cheap mats on the MB are probably bot source so it would just serve to help the bots after all. It's why I tend to stick to doing most of my own gathering and only buy the odd stacks I see listed on the MB when I'm too lazy to gather but the quantities needed for what you wanted to do would be prohibitive for just two, or even 20, players to get.

I am always open to help trying to give them as little gil as possible.

I do my own gathering as well, I mean the whole reason I got into crafting and gathering was more to avoid paying high prices, so if I do sell things, I prefer to keep them a reasonable price. So yes, if they were meaning to say low prices are good for the game, I am okay with that. what seemed to be implied was that the bots were keeping the prices low, and not actual players, which I disagree with (since I tend to be one of those crazies that drops a price by 10k+ and not a measly 1 gil)

the reality is though, as someone pointed out, since these operations cover all the worlds, being a small bump on a couple worlds will never change much. which is a sad but true bit of reality.

[Prrringles]

[QUOTE=Jojoya;5496010]I don't think he's saying that cheating is good for the game. He's saying low marketboard prices are good for the game.

Yeah good for who? Which party benefits here? Everyone 'cept for legit crafters. And let's be honest, most players have enough gil to buy any gear they want regardless of the price. Crafters are screwed in any scenario 'cept the one without bots.

[ItMe]

Yeah good for who? Which party benefits here? Everyone 'cept for legit crafters. And let's be honest, most players have enough gil to buy any gear they want regardless of the price. Crafters are screwed in any scenario 'cept the one without bots.

I feel like I answered that question here (p43):

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like in FF14 a crashed market is:

-- Inconvenient to some (if they've over extended)

-- Annoying to others (people who already at least broke even and the lower prices are challenging further profits)

-- But it's beneficial to literally everyone else and helps keep the game healthy and keeps items/products freely circulating.

[Dragonkat]

One of these days someone needs to explain how market bots inflating prices to insane levels on one side, and cutting down to mat costs on the other to keep legit crafters out of the market are "good for the economy"

But keep on keeping on JJ with your bot apologist claptrap and if it doesn't effect me it's not a big deal nonsense.

Meanwhile in reality.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._the_high_end/

[ItMe]

One of these days someone needs to explain how market bots inflating prices to insane levels on one side, and cutting down to mat costs on the other to keep legit crafters out of the market are "good for the economy"

Please, let's.
That's entirely what my question was seeking to explore.

Meanwhile in reality.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._the_high_end/

That's chilling and sad and I hope SQEX sees this as their wakeup call, but my question wasn't about bots so I'm struggling to understand how this relates.
I know I'm being a little confusing as I am posting this tangent on a thread about bots. But I tried asking a general question about the markets.

[Dragonkat]

That's chilling and sad and I hope SQEX sees this as their wakeup call, but my question wasn't about bots so I'm struggling to understand how this relates.
I know I'm being a little confusing as I am posting this tangent on a thread about bots. But I tried asking a general question about the markets.

Suggested reading though to be fair this is a tangent too more bot related.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...or_the_games/?

The two are intertwined though as bots are in most cases hyper inflating items like 300K for an aesthete ring of crafting (Stupid high and bad) Legit crafters trying to compete to a reasonable price will have to basically bell camp as the bots will every few minutes undercut them by a couple gil (time sink, so bad for them as they do not have infinite time, unlike a scripted bot) And depending on the scripting the bot may undercut to a point where the time needed to make the item is not worth the gain you make, or basically go so low you crash the market (worst)

And any attempt by players to crash a market on purpose defeats the whole goal. We aren't competing against each other in true "market pvp" to reach a fair price. we're trying to drive artificial inflation off the MB, and it's a futile cause to do so via the MB. You can't crash a market because the bots in 10 man crafter FC's will just rebound much faster than any player can. So at best you might make a dent for a day in pricing, provided again the players don't buy that ring at 49,995 instead of 50,000.

AND! (big AND!) here's the part where i honestly feel like joyjoya does not get it. The inflated prices fuel the need for RMT. But at he same time the gil that funds RMT coffers is the eventual sales when we try to undercut bots or other players paying out the rear for overpriced gear.

Banning an RMT spammer is pointless because the gil still exists off on another account. Banning the gil at the source would solve the problem because then the sellers wouldn't have any. That's why this if it doesn't bother me it's not a big deal look on life drives me up the wall.

Granted Ishgard made this that much harder, since now leveling an omni is nowhere near the time sink it was back in ARR when i made my first million off amethyst rings of all things. But we need to start somewhere or we may as well just pack it in and only craft for friends. Cause right now the MB is a lost cause that SQ needs to address, and imo?

NAMES NEED TO BE NAMED

The fact botters get to hide behind that rule too and trying to call them out just gets the accusers banned is another 500lb fat chocobo that needs to be dealt with too. More so when you can basically present them with mountains of evidence and the STF does NOTHING. It keeps them from being pressured to admit how large a problem it really has become.

[ItMe]

Suggested reading

That was a good read. Thank you.

No matter how you look at it, bots are BAD for the market/economy.

I agree and I don't think anyone is arguing against you.

[Jojoya]

Yeah good for who? Which party benefits here? Everyone 'cept for legit crafters. And let's be honest, most players have enough gil to buy any gear they want regardless of the price. Crafters are screwed in any scenario 'cept the one without bots.

There are far more players who are buyers than who are sellers.

You'd be very incorrect in assuming most players have plenty of gil to buy anything they want at any price. Most don't dozens of hours to play each week and the content they're doing in those few hours don't reward that much gil. The rich players like you and I who can afford anything we want (assuming it's available for purchase) are a small minority.

I'm a crafter. I still profit off what I craft to sell. As long as my costs are covered and I get a bit extra on top, I'm good. It all adds up quickly when you're not spending it.

When Kes talked about trying to flood the market to compete against the bots, I took a look at my local market board prices and saw I could make the majority of Exarchic gear for about 50k if I bought the mats off the MB or less if I gathered myself (I'm flooded with tomestone mats thanks to all the hunt trains I do). So I could be selling Exarchic for 50-60k and still turn a profit if I wanted. Wouldn't make sense to, of course - there are other items that sell for more and cost less to make. That's why I make those other items instead.

[Prrringles]

There are far more players who are buyers than who are sellers.

You'd be very incorrect in assuming most players have plenty of gil to buy anything they want at any price. Most don't dozens of hours to play each week and the content they're doing in those few hours don't reward that much gil. The rich players like you and I who can afford anything we want (assuming it's available for purchase) are a small minority.

I'm a crafter. I still profit off what I craft to sell. As long as my costs are covered and I get a bit extra on top, I'm good. It all adds up quickly when you're not spending it.

When Kes talked about trying to flood the market to compete against the bots, I took a look at my local market board prices and saw I could make the majority of Exarchic gear for about 50k if I bought the mats off the MB or less if I gathered myself (I'm flooded with tomestone mats thanks to all the hunt trains I do). So I could be selling Exarchic for 50-60k and still turn a profit if I wanted. Wouldn't make sense to, of course - there are other items that sell for more and cost less to make. That's why I make those other items instead.

Ofc there are more buyers than sellers. What if the "few" sellers decided to stop crafting and selling huh? You think the buyers would be happy buying from bots selling at inflated prices? Cos that's what's going to happen. And to your last point, go ahead and sell at "normal" prices. Be my guest and play the "1 gil undercut game" with the bots. I don't have time nor the energy for that. So when I craft and sell I rather dump it at low prices so I can make a quick buck in the least amount of time possible (which is good for the market right? Buyers rejoice).

No matter how you look at it, bots are BAD for the market/economy. Without bots;
- I would not have to dump truck loads of items for basically free.
- I would not even have to craft truck loads of items.
- I would not have to update my retainers every 5min because the bot script keeps running 24/7.
- I would not have to come to the forums and complain about trivial things.
- And so on