Does Square intend to address Market botting?

[TheLoveJenovan]

Thanks Eloc, Jojoya and Kes13a for your posts. I always enjoy reading new comments on this problem.

Crafting is actually one of my favorite things to do in this game but the botting has gotten so bad i now sell about 2 items a day.

I think we all feel the same way. Some people enjoy playing The Epic Alexander, and some like crafting and playing the market. I’ve always wondered how SE would address the issue if it impacted other content more extensively. I’d argue that market bots are more detrimental to a larger player base than other bots because crafters give up and don’t sell on the market, leaving bots to sell at very high prices.

1) Is there actual steps to take that gets results?
2) I report them 2-3 times a week but what if we all did it daily and spread the word?
3) Can we spread the word to the server populace without getting banned? It seems ludicrous that we cant even point out the problem.

I have never seen a bot get banned after multiple reports in-game and the Special Task Force (https://support.na.square-enix.com/c...382&la=1&fty=2) That said, I still think it’s worth reporting them. At the very least, SE must keep statistics on how many reports they get on each player and how many are ignored, when they do a post-mortem on the problem.

I think that continuing to discuss this issue through this thread could lead to a response. My hope is that this thread will receive enough visibility (views) to warrant a response from Yoshi-P.

We can’t name or shame individual accounts, even though it’s not really debatable whether you can ‘harass’ a computer script. However, we’ve been able to identify one type of bot (the FC bot) and list the FCs of those bots. These are crafting bots that sell almost every kind of item on a server and are part of an FC with one high-level crafter (FC owner) and 8-9 dummy accounts. If you could find those for your datacenter (Primal) to add to the list, that would be helpful.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5434835
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5433979

[TheLoveJenovan]

Thanks Jojoya. I haven’t played the game as long as you, and your comments on the problem long-term are helpful.

We do see SE banning some suspected bots so there are results.

I haven’t seen a bot get banned—are they a particular type of bot that gets banned? Have they banned bots in the last 6 months? I’ve reported market bots and DOL/Ephemeral bots many times.

Most bots don't pay subs... SE's problem is coming up with enough evidence that bot software is being used. The software is getting more sophisticated so it makes detection harder in many cases if the user follows the bot company's instructions. They do get caught on occasion but it's not as often as players would like.

I’m not sure that SE isn’t making money with the problem in some way.

They have to be making money from subs because there are market bots that have operated for 6-12 months or more with impunity, and these are paying accounts. Considering their diligence in acting on other TOS violations (phishing and harassment), I also don’t think they’re understaffed. I honestly think they avoid addressing some types of bots because they view them as beneficial for their game. It’s sort of like how some players justify DOL/Ephemeral bots because they make crystals affordable, even though the simple solution would be to just make an NPC merchant to sell crystals.

I also am not sure that they don’t have enough evidence. By definition, an account playing continuously and actively (i.e. not AFK) for more than 36 hours is not a human. A human can’t do that. At the same time you have bot accounts playing continuously for months, 24/7. If you’re right about there not being enough information in the reports, they could at least give us guidance on filling in more complete reports.

[TheLoveJenovan]

I find Jojoya's comment interesting on SE not having enough information on bots.

I'd like to try something new. Since we can't discuss specific bots here, I've created a discord for discussing and identifying specific bots on different datacenters. This is not meant to replace this thread, but it's to collect information for reports on specific bots.

My hope is that we can coordinate and gather information to make more detailed reports on specific bots, and see if that might help the problem.

https://discord.gg/KsZSqw

[Jojoya]

I haven’t seen a bot get banned—are they a particular type of bot that gets banned? Have they banned bots in the last 6 months? I’ve reported market bots and DOL/Ephemeral bots many times.

A notice is posted every week on Lodestone listing the number of accounts banned the previous week. Here's a link to the most recent one:

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...b147f391c1c7d7

In the past SE had lumped all botting activity together under RMT activity but recently they separated out the non-RMT activity. We can see that they are doing something though the numbers still aren't as large as we'd hope.

Like most game violations, it appears that SE is not permanently banning accounts on a first offense (unless clearly RMT activity). They're doing temporary suspensions then permanent if the player doesn't stop.

I would love a better way to report suspected bot activity, especially considering most of the details we can offer as players amount more to reasonable speculation than actual proof.

A couple of days ago, I was at the Fort Jobb Aetheryte taking a moment to chat with FC while I was scouting a hunt train. Suddenly, a group of characters all with one of the Legend titles displayed appeared around the Aetheryte at the exact same time. A few seconds later, they all took off in perfect unison in the exact same direction.

Clearly it was a party of bots, likely one of the bot map parties that has begun plaguing the game. It is impossible for a group of characters controlled by different human beings to act together with such perfect precision. A couple are going to be a little faster or a little slower because of ping and just general human reaction time. Player controlled characters would take off in slightly different directions before correcting to head the same direction.

There is no quick report tool I could use to select at least one of them, let alone all of them, to tell SE "this character is displaying behavior characteristic of a bot, please investigate". I'm not going to use the Report RMT option because the activity I witnessed was not directly RMT related though it could be getting used to fuel RMT somewhere done the line. All we have is the cumbersome chain of menu options before you get to "Report Cheating" and it would have taken me a considerable amount of time to try to chase the party down to collect names then fill out the support ticket. I didn't bother since there was a good chance they'd be done and gone before I could track them down.

Even a simple change so the current Report RMT quick option becomes "Report RMT/bot activity" would be an improvement.

They have to be making money from subs because there are market bots that have operated for 6-12 months or more with impunity, and these are paying accounts.

There are different types of bots involved. The vast majority of bots are getting run from the accounts set up with the stolen payment information.

The market bots you're referring to are generally operated by "real" players using bot software to automate some of their game play. Yes, they're legitimately subscribed but they're also very small in number compared to the total player base. If SE had some sort of proof they are botting, they would ban the account because losing a couple of dozen subscriptions paid by cheaters is not a big deal in a game with close to a million active subscribers.

By definition, an account playing continuously and actively (i.e. not AFK) for more than 36 hours is not a human. A human can’t do that.

Where is that definition listed? I can't seem to find it anywhere in dictionaries or even in online medical references? Human beings can be capable of amazing things over short periods of time (which would include something like 36 hours). Sometimes it happens as a consequence of medical problems (one of my old WoW friends was hooked up to bags and frequently would remain awake 48-60 hours straight thanks to pain and discomfort from cancer treatment gone wrong).

They can't keep up those patterns of behavior consistently for weeks, though. Eventually the body breaks down enough that the brain forces it to rest.

Also, how do you know those accounts are operating continuously and actively for more than 36 hours if you're not doing the same yourself and at the same location they are so you can be constantly watching them?

I'm willing to bet those accounts, even if being run with bot software, aren't displaying the activity you describe. They will have breaks in activity as they run out of supplies and need human oversight directing them what to do next, or enter into off peak hours where there's little reason to keep monitoring marketboard prices every minute when once an hour is sufficient.

SE is going to make certain they have enough proof before they take action. Gaming companies already get enough grief for taking actions against accounts because of false positives. Better for them to spend an extra month making certain it's a bot than to watch your friend have to fight to get a ban overturned because SE felt pressured to start banning people just to keep the vocal minority content.

[TheLoveJenovan]

Thanks Jojoya,
I'm not sure how to read those reports. They include impressive numbers like 3,238 RMT accounts banned, but I've never seen a bot get banned. I assume those are almost all accounts that advertise gil selling or that conduct the final gil transfer with the customer. The bots that fund these operations appear to never get banned, and these I think show up under the "Botting Activity" category, which only shows 3 terminations and 12 suspensions (this week). That's only 0.04 bans per server and 0.18 terminations per server. Another way to look at it is that it will take 22 weeks to ban 1 bot on a server or 5-6 weeks to suspend 1 bot on a server.

I started a spreadsheet of some of the bots on my datacenter, with the help of a couple of other people on the discord I created (https://discord.gg/KsZSqw). We've already identified 18 bot rings comprising 87 accounts that have operated anywhere from 83 days to 960 days (about 2.5 years).

My plan is to send the updated list to the Special Task Force every Thursday, after the post on "Actions Taken Against In-Game Bots." Hopefully they can make some headway with a more concerted effort from us players.

[TheLoveJenovan]

Thanks Jojoya,

I didn't get the second part of your post.

The market bots you're referring to are generally operated by "real" players using bot software to automate some of their game play. Yes, they're legitimately subscribed but they're also very small in number compared to the total player base. If SE had some sort of proof they are botting, they would ban the account because losing a couple of dozen subscriptions paid by cheaters is not a big deal in a game with close to a million active subscribers.

I disagree with this statement. The market bot accounts I am referring to don't play the game. They have all the crafters leveled and never level anything else or leave the apartment for months. Maybe it's a real player that likes to amass big numbers of currency in a game. Maybe it's a bot that's generating income for RMT sales.

Where is that definition listed? I can't seem to find it anywhere in dictionaries or even in online medical references? Human beings can be capable of amazing things over short periods of time (which would include something like 36 hours). Sometimes it happens as a consequence of medical problems (one of my old WoW friends was hooked up to bags and frequently would remain awake 48-60 hours straight thanks to pain and discomfort from cancer treatment gone wrong).

That's fair. If they identified bots this way, there would be false positives from a small number of outliers. I would still create a rule despite outliers though. In any case, I would think that a ban that resulted from a medical condition could be sorted out pretty easily with an email.

Also, how do you know those accounts are operating continuously and actively for more than 36 hours if you're not doing the same yourself and at the same location they are so you can be constantly watching them?

I don't have to, I just need to sample their activity at regular intervals for long enough. That said, I didn't run the statistics to ensure that I had a 95% confidence interval, but at the end of the day, the accounts I've listed are on all the time for months. I've never seen a break.

I'd be happy to write a script that logs the online activity of specific bots. Frankly, it's something that Square Enix should do. I also don't have much sympathy for them, as there's clearly a problem--identified by many people--and they haven't even given us a response. I'd be forgiving, if they simply posted:

"We recognize that we're getting many bot reports from users that have not led to bans of bots. We want to assure you that we've looked at each and every case, and in most cases, we could not identify the botting activity. Please include more detailed information in your reports."

[Jojoya]

I'd be happy to write a script that logs the online activity of specific bots. Frankly, it's something that Square Enix should do. I also don't have much sympathy for them, as there's clearly a problem--identified by many people--and they haven't even given us a response. I'd be forgiving, if they simply posted:

"We recognize that we're getting many bot reports from users that have not led to bans of bots. We want to assure you that we've looked at each and every case, and in most cases, we could not identify the botting activity. Please include more detailed information in your reports."

From what others have said, the Special Task Force is a very small team. They're not going to be able to respond to all the reports they get because that takes time away from actually checking activity. They aren't small children who need to report to their parents that they've done their chores, nor should we treat them like they are.

I'm sure they've got plenty of reports being generated using tools and data players don't have access to. What we don't know is the standards they've set internally for deciding when action should be taken against an account, and that's information that would never get shared with the player base.

Every MMO has its problem with bots. It's unavoidable. As players, we need to do what we can to report them when noticed but otherwise leave it up to the game developer to handle it. There's no point letting something out of our control upset us.

[TheLoveJenovan]

Jojoya:
As I've posted before, this game generates 100s of millions a year. There is no reason this Special Task Force has to be small. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to easily automate the detailed information needed to identify bots. They're just being greedy by not investing more to fix the product.

It's bad enough that the company doesn't listen to its customers. I've even posted Customer Support emails that show that they're an outside company that sends form emails.

I'm not going to further argue with Square Enix apologists, and I won't reply to you anymore. The company sucks, but you don't think so. Fine. Keep giving them your money.

[Kes13a]

Jojoya:
As I've posted before, this game generates 100s of millions a year. There is no reason this Special Task Force has to be small. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to easily automate the detailed information needed to identify bots. They're just being greedy by not investing more to fix the product.

It's bad enough that the company doesn't listen to its customers. I've even posted Customer Support emails that show that they're an outside company that sends form emails.

I'm not going to further argue with Square Enix apologists, and I won't reply to you anymore. The company sucks, but you don't think so. Fine. Keep giving them your money.

not just that, but is there just one STF? does it primarily focus on Japanese servers and gets to NA servers when its slow? I dont need to know all the detail about what they do, how they do it or the methods used to catch cheaters, but it would be nice to know the particulars of who they are, how many are involved and if NA is even a blip on their radar.

according to Q4 2019 data, SE had revenue of 470 million USG and Nexon had 450M, so if Nexon can try to be more proactive about bots and large scale cheating, why cant SE?

If crime spikes in your area, no one says "well, criminals are more sophisticated now than they were in the 1850's, I am sure the police are doing...something" no, you expect the police to either hire more people to deal with the issue, get better equipment to bring that under control.

saying "it is what it is" is not a reasonable answer. neither is "get used to crime, it happens"

The STF is paid to do one thing, of course there is no expectation they get to every report made on a daily basis. but I think it would be fantasy to believe they have no method of correlation so if someone gets reported for illegal activity, they get to it "eventually"

If they get these "plenty of reports" through their own tools and data, maybe they should start doing something about them.

As I said before, they can ban or terminate thousands, but its not broken down by server so could just be a number. I dont expect cheaters or bot users to vanish, all I expect, is acknowledgement of the issue by someone from SE, and an idea they are working on a fix.

as players, there is no reason not to expect cheaters to be punished for making major aspects of a game we obviously enjoy to be useless.

[Kes13a]

From what others have said, the Special Task Force is a very small team. They're not going to be able to respond to all the reports they get because that takes time away from actually checking activity. They aren't small children who need to report to their parents that they've done their chores, nor should we treat them like they are.

I'm sure they've got plenty of reports being generated using tools and data players don't have access to. What we don't know is the standards they've set internally for deciding when action should be taken against an account, and that's information that would never get shared with the player base.

Every MMO has its problem with bots. It's unavoidable. As players, we need to do what we can to report them when noticed but otherwise leave it up to the game developer to handle it. There's no point letting something out of our control upset us.

BS. as PAYING customers we have an expectation to be able to open the game and be able to play it in a reasonable fashion. so as players, you are basically saying we should just accept bots and the fact that harvesting and crafting are pointless currently and smile at the benign gods.

I dont expect that all the bots will go away. I am not a child either. but right now, SE might as well REMOVE harvesting and crafting because on my server at least, there is zero use for it. unless I use a bot.. seriously, things will never sell. unless I act like a bot, and stand on the market all day long, things will never sell. maybe things are different on your server, it sure seems like it. players shop for and buy items a few gil more expensive because you are a real person and not a bot, you have areas of the market where you can make millions of gil by putting up items at a reasonable cost and then go out harvesting and questing or farming.

your server seems to be an exception Jojoya.

none of us have any proof that they do any checking, or that they do not. because all we have is a weekly report of numbers.... strangely enough, even with those weekly reports, long term KNOWN bots still operate. since I am sure they have been investigated, are they real players? hard to imagine real people doing exactly the same thing for weeks on end, but perhaps. Do they have generated reports? who knows, not you and not I.

If you buy a car, and you cant use the a/c. radio, heater, are you thrilled with your purchase? you get letters from the company telling you they have fixed hundreds of people with a/c. radio and heater issues, but you never meet one.

would be better if they just removed the a/c, radio and heater from the car.