Does Square intend to address Market botting?

[Jojoya]

Anyway I was told to mention this on the official forums here rather than reddit to hopefully get in contact with a GM that can corroborate our evidence.

Game Masters don't come to the forums. The forums are monitored by the Community teams to gather general feedback.

What you need to do is open a ticket through the ingame Support Desk under Contact Us - Report Cheating. The GMs can contact you and give you information on how to submit your evidence if it's not something that can be done through the ingame ticket system. They will never share the results of any investigation of another player with you.

Keep in mind with Support Desk services being limited right now due to COVID shutdowns, it may be quite a well before you get any sort of response to your ticket.

By the way, that reddit thread has already bounced around here in the forums a few times. While very suspicious, there's nothing in it that constitutes actual evidence of botting. People do dumb things of their own free will all too frequently. Actual evidence would mean having a record of a program running on the player's computer that automates game play in some fashion. SE can't get that information, and certainly you can't as another player unless you had access to their computer.

If you think you're dealing with a MB bot, your best defense is to price match instead of trying to engage in an undercut war. When you do that, you end up looking like you're also a bot to the buyers who aren't part of your crafting inner circle.

Better yet, know the market and stick to your preferred price. If the item is actually selling and you've set a reasonable price, your item will still end up selling and you'll make that little bit of extra gil. While some players go for the absolute lowest price, other players actively avoid buying from the 0.1% undercutters. I've taken advantage on many occasions by setting my price slightly above the lowest one listed and had my items sell the same day.

[TwistedTea]

Better yet, know the market and stick to your preferred price. If the item is actually selling and you've set a reasonable price, your item will still end up selling and you'll make that little bit of extra gil. While some players go for the absolute lowest price, other players actively avoid buying from the 0.1% undercutters. I've taken advantage on many occasions by setting my price slightly above the lowest one listed and had my items sell the same day.

This doesn't really work against botters. For example, the Balmung community has reported gathering botters who are at it 24/7 for months/years but to no avail.

These botters have set the price of some mats, including those from timed nodes to less than 300 gil for more than 6 months at a time.

Because for a bot even selling for 1 gil is profit as they have not invested time like a human player has.

[Kes13a]

If you think you're dealing with a MB bot, your best defense is to price match instead of trying to engage in an undercut war. When you do that, you end up looking like you're also a bot to the buyers who aren't part of your crafting inner circle.

Better yet, know the market and stick to your preferred price. If the item is actually selling and you've set a reasonable price, your item will still end up selling and you'll make that little bit of extra gil. While some players go for the absolute lowest price, other players actively avoid buying from the 0.1% undercutters. I've taken advantage on many occasions by setting my price slightly above the lowest one listed and had my items sell the same day.

a couple major problems with setting the same price. Falls apart when the RMT bots transfer over a boatload of items and sell for half or less of that price.

Right now, the prices on Zalera of neo gear is just over what it costs to make for most of it. You can certainly stick with your "preferred price" but when there are 6 to 10 listings cheaper, no one is going to care if they are 0.1% undercutters...

[Jojoya]

This doesn't really work against botters. For example, the Balmung community has reported gathering botters who are at it 24/7 for months/years but to no avail.

These botters have set the price of some mats, including those from timed nodes to less than 300 gil for more than 6 months at a time.

Because for a bot even selling for 1 gil is profit as they have not invested time like a human player has.

This isn't about trying to make things into a competition against the bots. This is about trying to get your items sold.

You absolutely can get your items sold while competing against bots. You might not like the price but you can do it. I do it all the time for my FC with ores and lumbers that come back from submersible voyages. Bots have the MB flooded with their stacks of 99 listed at 150-250 gil each item. I list my stacks of 20-30 that came back from the voyages at 350-400 gil. Most of it is sold by the next day because there are players who want those smaller stacks.

a couple major problems with setting the same price. Falls apart when the RMT bots transfer over a boatload of items and sell for half or less of that price.

Right now, the prices on Zalera of neo gear is just over what it costs to make for most of it. You can certainly stick with your "preferred price" but when there are 6 to 10 listings cheaper, no one is going to care if they are 0.1% undercutters...

If their price is lower, someone's not matching their price. RMT bots are smarter than players, they're not going to undercut their own listings.

Why are you even trying to compete in a dead market that's saturated with bots? Neo-Ishgardian is being purchased for 2 reasons at this point: glamour, or the player has hit level 80 but still isn't close to completing the MSQ. EdenVerse, Memoria EX, Allegory tomestones - all that gear is equal or better but doesn't cost anything to get but a little of the player's time, and people have had weeks to accumulate it. They don't need Neo-Ishgardian anymore.

Just because something sells at a high price doesn't make it the most profitable. Frequency of sales has more impact. I can throw up a Neo-Ishgardian or Facet item at 120k on the MB and sell maybe one a week. Or I can make HQ Sunstone Rings to list for 15k each and sell 3 a day. Assuming I gather all my own materials instead of buying them from vendors and other players, that's 120k profit a week versus 315k.

Fight with the bots and everyone else making Neo-Ishgard for that 120k profit if you want. I'll take my easy 315k profit and not have to worry about the bots. That's how my alts end up gillionaires before they finish the 2.0 MSQ. I don't make and sell the more expensive items. I sell the things players need at prices they're willing to pay when no one else is interested in selling at those prices.

Know the market. Sell the things in demand that not enough other sellers are supplying. That's how you make gil.

And yes, some players do skip over the 0.1% undercutters even if means scrolling down 6-10 listings. It's not every player but you can see the evidence of it in the sales history especially if you're one of the sellers checking back when it's time to relist what just sold.

[tierney12]

This is completely the wrong mindset to have, the bots shouldn't be there, period. What you've said boils down to 'suck it up, let the bots win, and be happy making a pittance selling things for low margins'.' On Louisoix there are 4 bots competing with one another on Neo-Ish gear, 2 for High Allagan/Dreadwyrm glams, and another 2 for weapon glams. These bots probably absorb 50M a day that the crafting communities could take and re-invest in helping their friends, novices or housing. Whereas the gil that these bots take is getting sold online. The sales of Neo-Ish gear in particular is still healthy on my server and could be extremely profitiable to human players if they could actually take part in it, but we are being forced out of the game, that we pay money to play, by cheaters. I've started messaging the novice netwrok in my server frequently warning them not to buy off the bots and list their names, whenever my items sell I send tells thanking people for not buying from the bots. People keep asking me who the bots are and why SE haven't banned them yet and it seems it's just lack of effort on their part. They must have a log of how frequently retainers check their prices and it wouldn't be hard to see trends of price updates every 10 or so minutes 24/7.

[Jojoya]

This is completely the wrong mindset to have, the bots shouldn't be there, period. What you've said boils down to 'suck it up, let the bots win, and be happy making a pittance selling things for low margins'.' On Louisoix there are 4 bots competing with one another on Neo-Ish gear, 2 for High Allagan/Dreadwyrm glams, and another 2 for weapon glams. These bots probably absorb 50M a day that the crafting communities could take and re-invest in helping their friends, novices or housing. Whereas the gil that these bots take is getting sold online. The sales of Neo-Ish gear in particular is still healthy on my server and could be extremely profitiable to human players if they could actually take part in it, but we are being forced out of the game, that we pay money to play, by cheaters. I've started messaging the novice netwrok in my server frequently warning them not to buy off the bots and list their names, whenever my items sell I send tells thanking people for not buying from the bots. People keep asking me who the bots are and why SE haven't banned them yet and it seems it's just lack of effort on their part. They must have a log of how frequently retainers check their prices and it wouldn't be hard to see trends of price updates every 10 or so minutes 24/7.

You're right, the bots shouldn't be there. Players shouldn't want to cheat in a game.

But some do. There are people in the world who don't care about fair play. They're only interested in getting what they want by any means possible.

Game developers will always be in a neverending battle against bots they can't win because there will always be some way to counter something that's been programmed with something else that's also been programmed. Ban one bot and another one will show up the next day to take its place. That's why game developers do bot bans in waves spread out months apart. Once they know which account is botting, they can focus on that account to study the programmed behavior. Then they try to find ways to counter it that won't have an even greater impact on the game experience of those playing the game as intended. If they blindly ban the account, they've got nothing to watch to learn how to counter it. All you get is a never ending stream of new bots still existing in the game.

Until the world is rid of those who want to cheat, bots will continue to exist. You can sit there and stamp your feet about how they shouldn't exist but it doesn't change that they do.

Definitely encourage others to stop buying items from the MB that are listed by obvious bots. But you should think twice about naming specific sellers as bots because that can get you banned for harassment. Their wrong doesn't make your wrong a right.

[Autumn_Dawnfire]

Game developers will always be in a neverending battle against bots they can't win because there will always be some way to counter something that's been programmed with something else that's also been programmed. Ban one bot and another one will show up the next day to take its place. That's why game developers do bot bans in waves spread out months apart. Once they know which account is botting, they can focus on that account to study the programmed behavior. Then they try to find ways to counter it that won't have an even greater impact on the game experience of those playing the game as intended. If they blindly ban the account, they've got nothing to watch to learn how to counter it. All you get is a never ending stream of new bots still existing in the game.

That is hog-wash, SE doesn't seem to care about cheating period. This is not a matter of "studying the program" to come up with a countermeasure. It's metrics, it always has been. They don't take action against bot's because they are paid accounts, that's the likely reason for the "ban in waves".

More likely:
Bot players spend $$: account, expansion, level skips for combat, content skip, and starts immediately making GC Seals. $$ earned by SE, enter rope a dope action, the the bot is banned in a "Wave" when economically optimal for SE. Conclusion: SE is a corporate entity that by definition does not care about a level playing field, only about how your perception impacts their bottom line.

Are they aware of which of players are actually botting? In all likelihood - yes. They simply do not care to act because they are earning money from those accounts.

Actual player: 1 account on average, up to 4

Bot: 8+ accounts

Coordinated reporting is the only possible recourse presented, and the vast majority of those reports are ignored by SE - period end of statement. They will not respond with what they need as proof. The "bot task force" primary job seems to be, disposing of reports.

What does work? Shaming SE. They like to point out publicly that they take a stance against cheating, bott'ing, etc. We all know that's complete nonsense, they take a stance when it's in the public eye outside of game, and that is about the *only* time.

SE does not care about bot's (or cheating) they care the public image they have a "level playing field".

IF - SE actually cared about the bot's - they would take legal action vs. the RMT sites, it's been done by others, and when a RMT site stands to lose... REAL money for their actions.. there is very little reason to be concerned with Bot's.

If you want SE to take action - posting a video on social media is more likely to get your results then contacting SE. Effect their brand perception, aka simply tell the truth.

[Autumn_Dawnfire]

PS SE does in fact sell gil. With every level skip.

[Kes13a]

Why are you even trying to compete in a dead market that's saturated with bots? Neo-Ishgardian is being purchased for 2 reasons at this point: glamour, or the player has hit level 80 but still isn't close to completing the MSQ. EdenVerse, Memoria EX, Allegory tomestones - all that gear is equal or better but doesn't cost anything to get but a little of the player's time, and people have had weeks to accumulate it. They don't need Neo-Ishgardian anymore.

Just because something sells at a high price doesn't make it the most profitable. Frequency of sales has more impact. I can throw up a Neo-Ishgardian or Facet item at 120k on the MB and sell maybe one a week. Or I can make HQ Sunstone Rings to list for 15k each and sell 3 a day. Assuming I gather all my own materials instead of buying them from vendors and other players, that's 120k profit a week versus 315k.

Fight with the bots and everyone else making Neo-Ishgard for that 120k profit if you want. I'll take my easy 315k profit and not have to worry about the bots. That's how my alts end up gillionaires before they finish the 2.0 MSQ. I don't make and sell the more expensive items. I sell the things players need at prices they're willing to pay when no one else is interested in selling at those prices.

Know the market. Sell the things in demand that not enough other sellers are supplying. That's how you make gil.

Things are different on my server, Neo sells very well still, even some of the weapons. I sell a few complete sets a day, its not a once a week kind of market unless you are listing for 750k

I know my market, and how to make gil. we play differently but still get ahead.

my question was about SE and their attitude towards market bots. I wasnt requesting an opinion on if I knew how to market or not.

but thank you for letting us know how things are on your server and your methods. much appreciated ^^

[bhuedhbiediobdgbr]

there are at least 2 rmt botting rings in all worlds and probably servers too, one guys has all his crafting characters with busy status 24/7 this bot plays 24/7 gathers mats crafts all Neo and facet gather/crafting gear undercut 1 gil repeat, the second one crafts all Neo and facet gather/crafting gear sends them to his alt in FC where the bot stands next to a summoning bell price botting by 1 gil every 20mish. A few small things i noticed the first bot i mentioned doesn't craft fishing rod but the second one does and i think the first one doesn't undercut below 50k but the second one does. even if u price hike ur sells the bot will price hike theirs 1 gil below urs.