[dev1162] Gathering Fatigue Mechanics

[Lux_Rayna]

If people wanted to flood the market like that (which would be stupid anyway) they could with an extra character or so on. That wouldn't benefit the market flooders, either. Farming for my own stuff, stuff for friends, stuff that gets npc'd. DoH can flood markets (and do) like noboby's business. if its already easy to flood the market, then let's DROP THE FATIGUE~ You can only gather 30 times now before you gotta change! lol.... If its already easy, then the system must be ineffective as is.

As an aside, people doing DoH leves can flood markets, too. albeit it less often.

DoL is the only class that can effectively control the economy, and something like that *needs* limits. Unlike most games, FFXIV lives and breathes off of mats and crafted materials. Almost all of your gear is obtained through crafting, minus dungeon/primal drops. Because of this, collection of materials needs to be closely monitored, or a select few ppl would be able to control the entire market by creating several monopolies over specific materials. This kills competition, which allows the one in control to set the prices of things. Now every crafter is doomed to pay ridiculous amounts of gil for mats, which in turn makes all items crafted ridiculously expensive. Course you can't easily sell mats to pay for the gear because the other guy will undercut you until you give up or take very small profits. And yes, ppl *would* do this. There are a lot of jerks in the world, especially on nets.

While I agree the limit doesn't prevent market flooding cuz its so high, it does prevent monopoly. And it is monopoly that ruins game markets; FFXIV's market is especially fragile since most gear comes from crafting, and not random mob drops as in other games. As a result, it is prudent that gathering be limited.

[Peptaru]

I think it was some of the original intent to make DoH/L feasible as main jobs, but now they've said somethin like it won't work and they're going for a battle heavy path instead.

[Peptaru]

Crafters control the markets now and that's okay, but DoL isn't allowed to, kthx. Now i know, and knowing is half the battle!! God forbid a ton more ingredients came into play and made everything more affordable. OMG NO! You cannot monopolize a DoL market, you can only flood it by allowing people to gather more.

[TheVedis]

Crafters control the markets now and that's okay, but DoL isn't allowed to, kthx. Now i know, and knowing is half the battle!! God forbid a ton more ingredients came into play and made everything more affordable. OMG NO! You cannot monopolize a DoL market, you can only flood it by allowing people to gather more.

crafters DO NOT control the market, they are too busy undercutting each other to make a profit, and 99% of what they are trying to sell is worth less then the materials that it takes to make it

[Peptaru]

crafters DO NOT control the market, they are too busy undercutting each other to make a profit, and 99% of what they are trying to sell is worth less then the materials that it takes to make it

Overpaying for materials, undercutting to sell their items.... They may not be smart, but that is exactly what control is. They could refuse to pay that much for materials, as several people i know personally do, and stop undercutting if they wanted to. Just because they're idiots doesn't mean they don't have control.

[Lux_Rayna]

Overpaying for materials, undercutting to sell their items.... They may not be smart, but that is exactly what control is. They could refuse to pay that much for materials, as several people i know personally do, and stop undercutting if they wanted to. Just because they're idiots doesn't mean they don't have control.

I think you're misunderstanding what it means to have control. Crafters can't craft anything without mats, and they depend on gatherers for those mats. Its not that they choose to overpay, they don't have a choice outside of gathering large quantities themselves. They *have* to overpay for those mats or go on strike until gatherers lower their prices. But if you are on strike you are not making money, nor making anything. Plus there's no guarantee we'd lower our prices because gatherers can wait crafters out. Whether someone buys my mats or not I can still gather. But the same guy can't craft without mats, its impossible.

The economy always goes back to mats. Crafters undercutting each other isn't control, its competition. Plus that result works out better for dow/dom jobs who need those finished items and want them at cheaper prices. This isn't even touching upon the fact that you can gather things way faster than ppl can craft them, thereby making it easier to flood and control the market.

[Peptaru]

If crafters don't buy materials for a week, two weeks, two days, however long it takes they'll get cheaper. Gathering people with 3000 ore to sell either have to reduce prices or stop gathering. See how long it takes gatherers to drop their prices if they can't sell anything. I know you won't understand this, so I give up.

Crafters do not HAVE to overpay. They choose to because they're stupid. To reference "if you are on strike you are not making money" guess what.... neither are the gatherers... Seeing as how gathering supply can easily outpace crafting requirements.... really? REALLY?.... are you still not getting it?

[Lux_Rayna]

If crafters don't buy materials for a week, two weeks, two days, however long it takes they'll get cheaper. Gathering people with 3000 ore to sell either have to reduce prices or stop gathering. See how long it takes gatherers to drop their prices if they can't sell anything. I know you won't understand this, so I give up.

But at the end of the day its the gatherers that set the price. If we never choose to drop our prices crafters will be forced to buy them. They just don't have a say in the matter. They can try waiting us out, and we might drop our prices, but crafters don't get to decide waht the price is gonna be. At the end of the day, they have to buy what we sell them at the price we sell it. The demand for the finished product in question will force any crafter to buy the mats to make it. Its not that they're stupid, they just realize there's no way in heck you will get every crafter on the server to not buy something. There are no unions on FFXIV lol.

Crafters do not HAVE to overpay. They choose to because they're stupid. To reference "if you are on strike you are not making money" guess what.... neither are the gatherers... Seeing as how gathering supply can easily outpace crafting requirements.... really? REALLY?.... are you still not getting it?

Crafters have to overpay *if* we refuse to lower the price. They absolutely have to, or no one is crafting and no one is getting gear. As I said they *might* get us to lower the price, but they dont get to decide the price. Crafters aren't powerless, but they really aren't the ones in control of the situation. Ppl need gear, so crafters need mats. They can try holding out for lower prices but that would require an impossible amount of united effort lol

[Peptaru]

Which takes us back to the main point I made, crafters have control, they're just too stupid to work together. Its easier to say "we don't control the market", go complain about prices on the forums, then still overpay for materials. If the gatherers can hold out so easily and keep their price.... why can't the crafters keep refusing to buy? Stupidity.

[Lux_Rayna]

Which takes us back to the main point I made, crafters have control, they're just too stupid to work together. Its easier to say "we don't control the market", go complain about prices on the forums, then still overpay for materials. If the gatherers can hold out so easily and keep their price.... why can't the crafters keep refusing to buy? Stupidity.

Well probably because gatherers are *just* selling. A crafter is producing. Sure he might sell his product, but he almost might be making that product for someone else. Or he might make it for himself. Or he might be simply trying to level up. There's a lot more pressure on crafters than there are on gatherers. I still wont call it stupidity, its just caving in to pressure. Its hard when ppl in your ls want crafted items, or you want crafted items, or you need to get this once piece melded that you keep breaking; there is so much need for finished goods that crafters dont have the liberty of waiting 2 weeks for ore prices to drop. Who's gonna wait that long? Almost nobody lol...after all patience is not much of a virtue anymore.

The only reason gatherers can wait all day is because they have nothing better to do with it. Not like any of us *need* it to sell. We could just as easily log on our dow/dom jobs and enjoy the game while we wait for it to sell. Heck we can farm somethign else and try to sell that. Of all positions gatherers have the most leverage. It really isn't stupidity, resistance is completely futile. It is a practical impossibility for crafters to wait out gatherers, since there will always be the few rich ppl who will buy it at any price because gil is no object. Additionally, its almost impossible to get 8 ppl to work together for some purpose, much less every crafter in an entire server.

Really gatherers have all the advantage. Crafters only get to assert their power when they price gouge us for finished goods. But there's so much competition that they effectively drive the prices down of their own products. Now *that* is stupid.