Emet-Selch *Major Spoilers*

[Vyrerus]

I don't think Zenos is the best villain ever written. I do think that he is underrated and over hated though, and misunderstood.

He is meant to be a foil to the WoL. Where the WoL comes, seemingly from nothing, raising themselves up by their bootstraps to herohood and the path to being super powerful, Zenos comes from royalty and is bred and experimented into being super strong. Instead of using violence as a means to an end for altruistic endeavors and to save people, Zenos embraces violence for its own sake, for the sport of it, and to incite other people towards his philosophy.

When we are introduced to him in the story, he is very clearly depressed, as he hasn't found any sporting challenge befitting one of his strength. He's more than just bored. His world view and superiority complex make him this way. In a way, he is a reflection of the type of player who plays only to raid, only to beat the toughest stage, and looks down on everything else. This is probably the reason he falls flat for so many, and it's not like a lot of raiders even watch the story, heh.

It's not really his personality or worldview that are compelling, but the actions he takes within the storyscape. He funds and propels the Resonance project, imbuing him and others with the Echo. Then he proceeds to master it or show a stronger version of it than any other Echo user, taking control of Shinryu(a primal approximation of Midgardsormr in his prime, made from Nidhogg's eyes, Ilberd and his sacrificial lambs). When he still loses, he proceeds to take his own life. This hinges on his worldview, that he has found someone capable of greater violence and strength than he. This affirmation, this first defeat makes him truly happy, and he feels he will never attain this high again. Only, he did not know that he now needs to be killed with something akin to a Blade of Light in order to actually die.

Had he defeated us, he would have gone on to raze the land, searching for primals to fight or enslave. Likely winding up depressed again. Things did not go that way though, and his revival was as much a shock to him as it was to us. So, of course, he seeks us out, knowing we will not disappoint. That we will likely lead to satisfaction. That it is ultimately the pursuit of power that matters most.

Also, remember, the default dialogue option for the WoL when asked, "Why did you become an adventurer?" is, "To gain power." Zenos is a villain based around that. Not the best, but quite enjoyable in my opinion. And a good deal more enjoyable than Thordan, the religious leader who turns out bad in the end trope.

As for killing Emet-selch and why we had to kill him... to give his character gravity and for narrative consistency. We hit him with Auracite and a Blade of Light. That's the kind of stuff that hurts and kills immortals. Had he lived, we'd have to have a whole arc explaining why, and then finding a new way to kill him, so we could eventually kill him.

[Yencat]

Hah! and how does any abuse excuse that she has people torture and humiliates EVERYONE and kill some of course, including children (too spineless to do it herself)? "They didn't do nothing" doesn't mean anything. I wonder if you could see more of her past where she visits villages, randomly picks a child, gives them a gun and tells them to kill their parents and if they don't, then everyone in the village will be exterminated. I guess she is just making sure the next generation will be as crazy as she is. Come full circle and all that. There really is no logic in trying to come up with reasons for some obviously unhinged cunt. So i ask, why? If she wanted a killing spree, she could have just started with herself. She wanted everyone to suffer for what happend to her, whether they had anything to do with it or not, just because they are from doma. Yeah, not spiteful at all...

If you're gonna quote my post the least you could do is actually read it.

Nowhere does it say the fact she had a (very) rough life excuse anything she does, because of course it doesn't. The backstory of both her and Emet-Selch (and arguably Fordola) aren't meant to excuse their actions or to redeem them, they're there to show why they do what they do, and why they are the way they are. If all you see when you look at that is a sob story played for sympathy then that's more a failing on your part than the writing of the characters. You can feel sympathetic to both of them and still feel they deserved to die, you could even view it as a mercy killing as both were completely consumed and unwilling or unable to stop.

Which is probably also why Zenos fails to connect to a majority of people, not because he doesn't have a sob story but because his motivations are muddy at best and boring at worst.

[EDIT] You do bring up an interesting point that I agree with a few pages back about their beautiful/handsome appearance adding to people's positive reception of them. Vauthry never had a chance before he was even born and rarely seems to get any sympathy or attention, no doubt in part because he looks the way he does (in his human form at least).

[Akiudo]

I don't think Zenos is the best villain ever written. I do think that he is underrated and over hated though, and misunderstood.

He is meant to be a foil to the WoL. Where the WoL comes, seemingly from nothing, raising themselves up by their bootstraps to herohood and the path to being super powerful, Zenos comes from royalty and is bred and experimented into being super strong. Instead of using violence as a means to an end for altruistic endeavors and to save people, Zenos embraces violence for its own sake, for the sport of it, and to incite other people towards his philosophy.

my personal problem with zenos isn't that he is what he is, its that he in fact remained completly static and has simply overstayed his welcome. Its not about being the guy that "hunts for sport" , its that after 1,5 expansions thats still ALL he really does.

If Zenos after his comeback had not just accepted his defeat, but actually tried to overcome us by adopting any kind of "new philosophy", be that actually training, some soul searching to sniff out his actual weak points, or even getting freaking allies i would have been fine with that, even some "i will throw myself into the wilderness naked" type of challenging himself i could have lived with, because while that would still mean "get stronger, kick more ass" at least it would show he is willing to actually challenge his own shortcomings, which given the position he's in simply is necessary to make any growth as a character possible. Yet in practice his very next plan was "merging with the magical dragon god failed, lets merge with/enslave the supreme god of all thats evil, than i will be the strongest guy ever."

its cool the guy has goals, but if his very literal goal is "being the strongest ever to kick the one guys ass that actually comes out to be a challenge" thats fun for a single patch, two if being generous, surely not for 2 expansions in a row with no clear end in sight.

[Tsaranoga]

If you're gonna quote my post the least you could do is actually read it.

Nowhere does it say the fact she had a (very) rough life excuse anything she does, because of course it doesn't. The backstory of both her and Emet-Selch (and arguably Fordola) aren't meant to excuse their actions or to redeem them, they're there to show why they do what they do, and why they are the way they are. If all you see when you look at that is a sob story played for sympathy then that's more a failing on your part than the writing of the characters. You can feel sympathetic to both of them and still feel they deserved to die, you could even view it as a mercy killing as both were completely consumed and unwilling or unable to stop.

Which is probably also why Zenos fails to connect to a majority of people, not because he doesn't have a sob story but because his motivations are muddy at best and boring at worst.

[EDIT] You do bring up an interesting point that I agree with a few pages back about their beautiful/handsome appearance adding to people's positive reception of them. Vauthry never had a chance before he was even born and rarely seems to get any sympathy or attention, no doubt in part because he looks the way he does (in his human form at least).

All i see is a sob story, because that is the only reason the villains are ever given for whatever it is they do. They would need to go deeper to give it any meaning. Like if they explained what happend between Yotsuyu and her parents or what happend to her parents before she was even born for them to treat her like that, then maybe... but no, they are just "evil" and that is why they deserve to die. The "evil" thing is only used when they need someone to die to progress the story and nothing more. It's after all easier when you make them pretty and give them a sob story.
And you are right, if Vauthry looked like what he looks like after he transforms throughout the story, everyone would be here coming up with excuses how "he just wanted a paradise" or something. Hah! Painfully predictable.
If we could actually choose even meaningles things, then you propably would have said something to try to make Yotsuyu feel better but i would have chosen to curb stomp her skull. That would have been nice, after all, she was dead anyway so it wouldn't have changed anything.

[Yencat]

All i see is a sob story, because that is the only reason the villains are ever given for whatever it is they do. They would need to go deeper to give it any meaning. Like if they explained what happend between Yotsuyu and her parents or what happend to her parents before she was even born for them to treat her like that, then maybe... but no, they are just "evil" and that is why they deserve to die. The "evil" thing is only used when they need someone to die to progress the story and nothing more. It's after all easier when you make them pretty and give them a sob story.
And you are right, if Vauthry looked like what he looks like after he transforms throughout the story, everyone would be here coming up with excuses how "he just wanted a paradise" or something. Hah! Painfully predictable.
If we could actually choose even meaningles things, then you propably would have said something to try to make Yotsuyu feel better but i would have chosen to curb stomp her skull. That would have been nice, after all, she was dead anyway so it wouldn't have changed anything.

I suppose they could have, but if they had explored the parents more it probably becomes a never ending chain of 'hurt people hurt'. Just to reiterate though I don't find her sympathetic and I wasn't team Precious Cinnamon Roll Tsuyu deserves redemption. She didn't deserve all the things that happened to her but when we met her she was already a lost cause.

Out of curiosity, are there any villains in FFXIV you 'liked'?

[Morningstar1337]

All i see is a sob story...

I think I can see where your coming from. But I must put mu 2 gil in the matter.

The way I see it there are two types of villians

• The card-carrying type. Usually flat, usually revels in villainy and usually makes their mustache twirling evil apparent. A staple of stories with more clear cut morality. Executed poorly (bar that effect being intentional) they are less characters and more forces of evil
• And then there's the sympathetic type: Which can range to reluctant villain to anti villain to even antihero. They usually aren't evil for the sake of it like the above, and thus they tend to have Freudian excuse backstory (which despite the term may not actually excuse their actions). Sometimes they are the well-intentioned extremists who seeks to achieve good ends via bad means, other times they are desperate souls who think they have no choice but to do what they do to archive some end, and sometimes they are just villains who have some sort of standards that make them more noble incomaprison to the other villains.

For the former, we have only Zenos and some of the Ascians, for the latter we have Yotsuyu, The Ascians (including the member of whom this thread is named) and Gaius. But the thing is...

• None of them are redeemed per se IMO, Yotsusu died a tragic but deserving death but she became a monster of her own making so she had to go.
• Emet-selch has sympathetic motives but his ends were at odds with everyone else and I'd argue that he was bordering on "master race" ideology.
• Gaius is on our side but he still harbors the same kind of ideology that the Ascians had, and only dislikes being used by them. He is arguably still the same kind of fascist that would be anathema to anyone that id both good and isn't drowning in their flavor-aid (which is likely why are characters still disdain him). He's only in it to settle personal scores with the Ascians and try to save his orphans he unknowingly doomed. The Weapon storyline might change that but for now I put him in the same running as the Diamonds of Steven Universe among others, not quite redeemed yet (and this is at best).

Anyway my point is that this is a grey game and therefore it has a lot more gray villains, but I do kinda agree that we need a bit more evil-for-its-own-sake villains

As an addendum I must point out that Valthrey it also in the grey category and similar to Yotsusu in some aspects. His upbringing left him with a superiority complex and a severe lack of empathy, meaning he is as pitiable as Yotsusu and as irredeemable, both are borderline.

[EnigmaticDodo]

...

I completely agree with you. He as a character is boring, but his actions are interesting.

[Crushnight]

My issue with Zenos as a villian is he is way way too subdued for the type of villian he is, and because he is so subdued I don't find him entertaining to watch, the man is a walking mountain of strength yet the biggest ham and cheese sandwich he ever bit was just before Shinyru every other scene has him move slowly, have him sitting, trying to be manipulative, he is a force of nature character stop ham stringing him and let him act like a force of goddamn nature. Zenos is acting like Duke when he is really Zagi hate bone and all

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

And a good deal more enjoyable than Thordan, the religious leader who turns out bad in the end trope.

Thordan would've been a lot better for me if he had more than four cutscenes he was in. And if he was just opposed to us due to differing beliefs rather than "Oh, by the way, I also want to take over Eorzea as God."

[Tsaranoga]

Out of curiosity, are there any villains in FFXIV you 'liked'?

This may not suprise anyone but Gaius van Baelsar. I just want some, if they try to be "sympathetic" they should have a logical reason to being "evil" but they should be "evil" only to you, not to themselves.