Suggesting Ideas for Blue Mage with feedback & Removing Limited Job Status

[TeraTyrantShadic]

Youve got better faith in the player base, but seeing how the arguments and thought processes have gone in the past threads as well as tangentely related topics, the immediate response would be "TY SE! We love you"...and then 3 weeks later "SE why you still punishing BLU! Why these exceptions! No other class has this issue at 'x' level" and thatll turn into threads such as this where "What can we do to unlock the class and make it a full class." You read Reddit and OFs enough, you see a general trend in player rationality when it comes to balance on MMOs.

I believe the player base is more or less of a wildcard at this point. There are the good people and the bad people. Personally I don’t care which side, unless it is something I am very passionate about (Blue Mage in FFXIV becoming proper jobs) I’ll pick that side and help as much I possibly can. However I did post my document and the topic on reddit and immediately on day 1, two unconstructive comments popped saying that “Oh my god this thread again” and “It will always stay as a limited job” and 1 with actual constructive feedback/discussion which may or may not have derailed talking about World of Warcraft. Several days later and nothing but silence, no discussion and no feedback. As for the Official forums, I saw some threads talking about Blue Mages but they have long since been buried, either they have given up on hoping Blue Mage will become a real Job. In an MMO like FFXIV it can be difficult to implement Blue Mage, that may be so but it doesn’t hurt to try and provide ideas and as well as discussing it further.

Im still in the position that it doesnt have to be a full class and in doing so would require rebuilding it. The problem ends up being the same no matter how you cut it - Either the changes will be to minimal and BLU will end up being a must bring, or theyll be to drastic and result in needing to rebuild how the class operates. Much of what I suggested would work (on paper atleast from a basic stand point) and fixes a ton of potential power issues but in doing so would require a lot of reworking and rebuilding how BLU works. The other route of doing as little as possible and making some minor changes to skills and leaving it as is just doesnt work in FFXIVs end game environment unless you are gonna throw out balance or some of the philosophies that the devs are currently pushing (reducing the meta aspect of raiding, for example.)

I understand you have your own position as to why it does not need to be a full class. However I am going to go off tangent and explain why Limited Jobs is a bad idea and how it can set a bad precedent to future Jobs.

I think it is better to make it a full class. If players are just gonna allow limited jobs, it'll not just become another mini game but a reason for the developers to not focus too much on one class where people would love to see it and let it be a botched idea. Eventually this will become a habit, saying that a potential new class can come to FFXIV will be a limited job and will divide the community to those who want to play it as a real job and those who want it as a side content. This sort of argument can be easily summarized as "Blue is perfectly fine as it is'' and on the other side "Blue needs to be a real job" (I am on the other side). If you have read the document and why I presented my reasoning as to why the Limited Job system is a bad idea, cause it preys on the hype of initial release of new updates. "Hooray new updates'' The content will be active for at least a month or two and eventually the hype dies, then what? People who came late or sprouts who wanna try it can, but they won't receive much support unless someone is there to help them obtain their spells. Thankfully, we have such group systems like Free Companies, Fellowships, Mentors, Party Finders and Linkshells (Discord, is another possibility) that provides assistance, but even with those there are some who are reluctant to even help a new Blue mage. Which can make it hard or new or returning players trying out the job. Believing in the Limited Job system is equivalent to saying "Leave the new players behind and don't teach them about Blue Mage unless they can find specific players that can help them out". There's even some people dissuading new players and returning players to try out Blue Mages. If that is the case (It may be so) players are most likely not to try the class and there are many reasons why.

Another thing I want to point out that I have seen in the thread is using achievements as a guideline to see how many are participating in Blue Mage Content. Achievement data ≠ Number of people playing Blue Mages. Getting the Morbol mount is not exactly difficult but time consuming. Many players will see that they need to do savages synced and without echo which in many cases for savage raiding you need to put in time and dedication to the fight just to earn the achievement for the mount, especially for Brute Justice. I cannot say for certain about the player base time availability, but what I can say is that as a side content it is not really doing its job to incentivize new players to actually try it even with titles and mount many would just turn off and do their main job.

I can understand why many call it a mini game rather than a side content. It does not contribute to the current currencies needed, which are Allagan Tomestone of Allegory, Allagan Tomestone of Phantasmagoria or Sack of Nuts. It may provide Allagan Tomestone of Poetics and you can earn about 740 a week with a prime target included. It can used with the current and previous relic content, but eventually it will all be forgotten about until the next set of relic weapons or a content that uses Poetics plus you can easily earn them in roulette if you do all of them (580 + the poetics you get from old previous dungeons, 700 Phantasmagoria (Without mentor roulette), 210 Allegory (Without Mentor Roulette)) and can be repeated regardless while Blue Mage is capped weekly. It provides Allied Seals, you get can get Cute Justice (Minion), Incendiario (A Blue Mage Weapon which is very useful as it has 2 materia slots), the Whalaqee Accessories, and the normal Allied Seal stuff, but it really doesn't help with other than buying grade 7 or 8 materia which you can sell. Again, it'll become obsolete, with the exception of materias. Even with that on a weekly basis if you do not include the Blue Mage Log weekly you gain just 550 Allied Seals from just masked carnival and 1 materia costs about 400 allied seals. Not as effective as farming a trust dungeon for materia but chance for grade 8 materia is high, but let's say we include the weekly hunt target and Blue Mage Log's Prime target they gain 950 allied seals, 2 materias in a week. Which is still more ineffective than just trust farming Anamnesis Anyder or doing hunt trains everyday for cracked Planiclusters and Stellaclusters (Can even get them for doing the adventurer in need bonus from DR: Leveling and alliance raids) to sell materia. Even with selling the battle materia the main squeeze for Gil, is gathering and crafting materia and the legendary nodes most preferably High Quality (HQ) Ingredients.

Another thing is that you cannot even do Main Story Quests with it, if it really was a side content then they should be allowed to do so cause most Main Scenario Quests are single player instances with some quests requiring Duty Finder. You can swap jobs midway during the quests. An example would be that I would play Bard all the way up into Stormblood expansion and if I want to change jobs I can do Samurai and continue Stormblood expansion from there. This can be easily applied to Blue Mages but yet they put a requirement saying "Any Disciple of War and Magic (excluding limited jobs)" forcing you to play the main jobs already released, even though most of the quests have an instance where you can just do it alone.

How about squadrons? That is a side content that provides new ranks, and rewards for reaching the Captain rank and you get to recruit your own army to do missions whether it will be running dungeons or sending them out to complete a task. Does it provide something? Yes, though it is heavily RNG and it can vary from with different currencies like Contemporary Warfare books; Materia for gathering, crafting, war or magic; Crystal Clusters; Yellow Craft/Gather scripts; Bonus Company Seals; MGP and Gil. Most of these rewards, although random provides something to the bigger picture to help players out easily in all content. Even with that we can't run it as Blue Mages, so... a 'side content' that cannot run in a side content.

Side Content means it is content that intertwines with the main content and contributes to the overall content. Blue Mage as of the time of posting isn't even remotely contributing as significantly as playing a normal job and getting tons of things on both a daily and weekly basis. To say Blue Mage is a side content is saying that mini games are side content. Mini games may be side content, but it doesn't provide anything to the bigger picture and it just stands there being idle and in the background. The Limited Job is just doing that; Put it out, let the argument, rallying and drama happen with constructive feedback being buried under all of that or not happening during the initial launch of the new Limited Job and eventually people will forget about it. People never forget things, especially on the internet. I can imagine the same thing will happen to Beast master and Puppet master. Which can result in giving a bad experience for those who really want to use it as their main job and hoping to use it. However as of now I can see Limited Jobs somewhat useful in an experimental sense. Where this is all just a trial run, where we play it and see whether or not it needs improvements and as a community we provide the feedback necessary. It is a repeat of what I said in the last sentence but it has to be said again.

Moving away from why Limited Jobs is a bad idea. Mulliganing a job is also not an answer to the problem, with how they have already set Blue Mage feedback and constructive criticism needs to be based on what has been provided. New ideas and suggestions are great to the conversation, but suggesting to redo the class with the current system already in place is just too inconvenient for them and it will take up too much resources. As a community we work together not just ourselves but with the developer’s visions in mind. I can’t believe I am saying this but think of it as an assignment from your boss except there is no deadline (Other than next expansion) everyone including myself have to work within the framework of what they have provided and how we can improve upon it without forcing a mulligan hand. So far the feedback regarding how we could improve upon the current Blue Mage sounds great and I am glad we as a few people from the english community could come up with and I encourage even more ideas to be added to the thread. They haven't placed a Job Gauge yet, so there is still hope for the class to truly be added into the game. As many have said we have yet to see 100% of what they were planning for Blue Mage and that is true, but who is to say we are not trying to help shape Blue Mage’s future with the developers.

[Melichoir]

Snip

The Trouble Im seeing wiht your position, if I understood it, is the issue with hype and why its not even 'side content'.

In regards to hype:

Best of my knowledge, they never promised you or anyone anything in regards to the job, or even future jobs. People assumed "FFXI had BLU, therefor FFXIV will do the exact same thing" and got hyped up about that. That is people problems, something that comes up frequently within these forums or on Reddit. People run wild with what they think should be, rather then what the Devs give us, and then get angry because it doesnt live up to their standards. And I get that "Well they did it in FFXI", but that usually is an oversimplified answer that almost never takes into account how that game worked. More broadly, how BLU was as a class has been pretty amorphous, where it changes from game to game in the FF series. It's biggest core aspect was learning non conventional spells, I suppose. If measured by that metric, then it has accomplished that aspect.

But the devs, best of my knowledge, never said "Yes, were gonna give you a brand new classes you can use in the fullest aspect like any other, no catches." So the issue with Hype is more a player base expectation than a dev one typically. While we can argue how well devs communicate their message to us at times, it should be well understood that the player base needs to own up to its own misconceptions. Half the outrage at Devs comes from players expecting something the devs never promised.

Side Content:

This is completely subjective of what makes side content. You defined it as something that intertwines and feeds into the main content, but that is a standard you are arbitrarily creating. If it doesnt contribute in a way you say, it isnt 'side content'. Consider even how you define it too. What does "Contribute to the overall content" mean? What is the 'overall content', because at face value that would imply anything happening in the game that you can do.

There are plenty of people who see it as side content and define it as "Content you do on the side of the main content" or simply "Non MSQ or current Raid Content". Side content may or may not contribute to the main content. Housing is side content - nothing about it contributes to MSQ or gearing the current tier. PVP is side content and only rewards Allegory if youre lvl capped, so that's how it relates to main content. Gold Saucer is side content as a whole. Hildebrand Quests are side content. Holiday events, Special cross overs, and the like are side content. There are many kinds of side content that have many kinds of pay off, some more and some less connected to pushing the MSQ/current tier. There's so much in the game that if left defined by your definition wouldnt be side content but just mini games and 'doesnt count'. But a lot of other people beg to differ.

Even then, what you are suggesting doesnt seem to make to much sense. Take your position and consider crafting - Depending on how I deal with that, that is or isnt side content purely by the actions I take and not by the design of it in game. If I do nothing but craft and do it specifically to make gil so I can buy glamour and do zero to interact or progress the current tier or main content, it is not 'side content' but a mini game simply because I am not doing something that intertwines with the main aspect of the game?

The broadest definition that makes most sense at the end of the day is side content is things you do that isnt directly MSQ related.

More importantly: Why does it matter how you define it? The point of games, broadly, is fun and entertainment. The question shouldnt be "What kind of content is this", but rather "Is this fun? Am I enjoying myself? Is this worth my time?" And this is something that people have to ask and answer for themselves. There are literally people who dont see the MSQ as fun or enjoyable, but love the raid scene, or doing pvp, or just want to have a pretty house and cool glamours. They dont give 2 damns about the MSQ, but they get satisfaction from other aspects of the game that they feel is worthwhile. And that is fine. It isnt important what you call it, just that its something you can do in the game. And that comes with ups and downs.

Beyond that, what they will add with BLU is probably more of the same, much like with most content. Refining it, adding more skills, possibly adding a gauge in eventually for more variabled play, new challanges. This all seems likely. But making it on the same level as MNK or WAR, being able to do current savage content with it without rebuilding the class and adding in limitations or restrictions isnt likely to happen. Not without rebuilding the class.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

The Trouble Im seeing wiht your position, if I understood it, is the issue with hype and why its not even 'side content'.

In regards to hype:

Best of my knowledge, they never promised you or anyone anything in regards to the job, or even future jobs. People assumed "FFXI had BLU, therefor FFXIV will do the exact same thing" and got hyped up about that. That is people problems, something that comes up frequently within these forums or on Reddit. People run wild with what they think should be, rather then what the Devs give us, and then get angry because it doesnt live up to their standards. And I get that "Well they did it in FFXI", but that usually is an oversimplified answer that almost never takes into account how that game worked. More broadly, how BLU was as a class has been pretty amorphous, where it changes from game to game in the FF series. It's biggest core aspect was learning non conventional spells, I suppose. If measured by that metric, then it has accomplished that aspect.

But the devs, best of my knowledge, never said "Yes, were gonna give you a brand new classes you can use in the fullest aspect like any other, no catches." So the issue with Hype is more a player base expectation than a dev one typically. While we can argue how well devs communicate their message to us at times, it should be well understood that the player base needs to own up to its own misconceptions. Half the outrage at Devs comes from players expecting something the devs never promised.

I wasn't there during the initial announcement of Blue Mage unfortunately and I wish I did, though at the time I had my own issues before I came back to the game full time. But regarding the hype, there were not any promises made of Blue Mage being made, however I’d like to point out that the Live Letter XVII Q&A Summary (09/11/14), Yoshida statement at 0:53:21 did not mention anything about bringing it into the game, but it is insinuated (whether intentionally or not) that Blue Mage was planned to come into FFXIV but with the challenge of how to go about it with the current MMO setting. For 5 years they have been waiting and hoping for Blue Mage to become a class they could main and yet it was not meant to be, so I can understand why some felt hurt by the move of making it a limited job. Feeling aside though, the statement made by Yoshida himself 6 years ago (At the time of this posting) could have speculated to others that Blue Mage was in the works.

In terms of relatability to FFXI, these are two very different systems which I have briefly touched on in the document. However I am planning on adding more since it is almost 1 week after the upload of the document and it will be amended soon with my recent findings in FFXI and throughout the internet regarding Blue Mages in FFXIV. Even if Blue Mages changes from game to game the core aspect of the class is customization and adaptability with the use of monster spells/skills they cast, which at the moment the developers have done a good job. Praising aside, their current attempt managed to split the community in half about the opinions of Blue Mage and there could be room for improvements to improve such a job if it were implemented in this kind of MMO while retaining its uniqueness and core identity. Which is why I suggested the job gauge path to be more focused upon it. There is such a mechanic that can easily make it intertwined together perfectly. Unbridle Learning (Allowing access to certain blue spells to be casted) and Unbridle Wisdom (Allow certain blue magic spells to be casted but instantaneously) are the abilities from FFXI, it doesn’t have to be the same name-wise or ability-wise but you can take inspiration from that and do something like a Job Gauge based on it which I have previously discussed. Hence why some expected it to be similar to FFXI, the foundation has and was already set and Yoshida acknowledges FFXI (Since he was also in the works of FFXI Remake for mobile). So taking ideas from an already existing MMO and implementing it into FFXIV was not a far fetched idea, granted they are two different systems but nevertheless it can be done without reworking too much about the job. Which is why some are angry from that speculation, it is not because they want it to be exactly the same but because the building blocks were there for them. It may be incomplete but it is a piece of the puzzle to solve it, whether the developers ignored it or not we do not know as they operate within their own methods. Whether their rage about Blue Mage being not similar to FFXI is the majority of opinions I’d say there is more than just “It because it is not the same as FFXI” opinions. They are a wide variety of reasonings and some if not most are valid reasonings and the developers do need to take heed to the feedback.

On a more personal note had you started since the beginning of ARR you would very well know Yoshida by now on how he present things and in a more positive and fun way (Not in a bad way I think making the fans speculate is fine an all just be careful on how you tend to go about it.). He would leave little tidbits of information or be direct. We have 0 ideas especially before a new expansion. Remember him wearing a Spider T-shirt before the Fan Fest Europe for Stormblood started (I was there personally to witness the event and have a great time for myself and it was amazing)? A few minutes later he comes back out dressing as a Samurai. He can be either direct or indirect which is good and bad but good cause sometimes the community will build speculation and hype regarding what may be coming next. So saying players should own up to their misconception is somewhat agreeable to an extent, most of the time their speculation was on point give or take but for Blue Mage, the misconception of it being similar should be thrown out of the door, however to be a proper job they can main in future content? They were hoping for such a thing to happen and even now some still want to main the job in current content.

More importantly: Why does it matter how you define it? The point of games, broadly, is fun and entertainment. The question shouldnt be "What kind of content is this", but rather "Is this fun? Am I enjoying myself? Is this worth my time?" And this is something that people have to ask and answer for themselves. There are literally people who dont see the MSQ as fun or enjoyable, but love the raid scene, or doing pvp, or just want to have a pretty house and cool glamours. They dont give 2 damns about the MSQ, but they get satisfaction from other aspects of the game that they feel is worthwhile. And that is fine. It isnt important what you call it, just that its something you can do in the game. And that comes with ups and downs.

Beyond that, what they will add with BLU is probably more of the same, much like with most content. Refining it, adding more skills, possibly adding a gauge in eventually for more variabled play, new challanges. This all seems likely. But making it on the same level as MNK or WAR, being able to do current savage content with it without rebuilding the class and adding in limitations or restrictions isnt likely to happen. Not without rebuilding the class.

I can agree that people can enjoy the game however they want. However I am more on the point of Blue Mages being an actual job than something on the side. We have seen how new content was added for Blue Mage and massive reworking is not all that necessary, cause right now they managed to do it with the current spells. Not at its fullest extent but still it works, reworking or restarting a project is a big waste of cost and we should proceed forward with the skills in mind. Massive rework or rebuilding is not needed because the stage has yet to be set, mainly where is the job gauge?

Referring back to your main important question, fun is a very subjective term. If people find it fun who is to stop them and if people don’t find it fun again who is to stop them. The definition of fun can never be truly answered. Mine was’t the defined version of side content or how people should enjoy it. However I would like to point out that this opinion varies between people. I find it fun even after clearing savages and even then I still play it hoping it will be a standardized job while retaining its core identity which can be done.

This all boils down to how we introduce Blue Mage’s Job Gauge cause in Stormblood it is when they introduced the Job Gauges for all Jobs and when they do can we implement it to the current game? I can give a straight answer and say Yes because what they needed to focus their time on was the Job Gauge cause if you want to keep the core identity of a class throughout the series give it a gauge and see how you can do it which will be amended in the document. More to come on that soon (stick around to see the new version).

In terms of savages and extreme trials I have done them but I am not sure about you, but there is no way of cheesing the mechanics unless the boss is very low on HP like at least 5%, some are 12%. If you had experience as a blue mage in these savage instances you could understand they can very well fit into the current raiding tier even with their overpowered abilities being useless in alexander cause the fight was mechanics focus and timing is essentially key and to go a step further you cannot use these abilities on the main boss itself. What is to say the next tier of raid is gonna be against Blue Mages when they cannot cheese the raid, then the balance is already there and set cause nowadays it is all about mechanics and DPS-Check (A tight one at that might I add). This is all explaining just for savages using Blue Mages into them and that is not considering casual content. If you’re worried Blue Mage will cheese Ultimate raids, I’ll say in one sentence. You cannot cheese ultimate because everything has a certain step and it requires extreme coordination and planning with a dedicated group willing to spend at least 4 hours a day on ultimate raids everyday for a month or two. As for casual content, some if not most bosses are immune to the overpowered spells, who is to say that this will also be applied to Stormblood. Before bosses there are mobs, yes we can just Level 5 death after group them or just crowd control them with sleep and deep freeze but we did crowd controlling back in ARR and even then with Level 5 Death, it has a very long CD plus the fact that it has a chance to miss, you can just increase the chances of missing higher or 50%, where 50% of the time it will hit or miss.

Overall I have said it before and I will say it again. Blue Mage can become a standardized job retaining it core identity and become multiplayer content available in time, since we are at the stage of near completion with one more aspect of the job missing specifically the job gauge, hence the need to rework is close to 0 but minor adjustments of certain spells and skills is bound to happen. It has happened to classes before in ARR and HW, it will happen again with players always finding a way to complain about the nerf of certain damages getting lower damage potency.Not everyone can be pleased and if that what it takes to bring Blue Mage to the current raiding I welcome it cause from there on we can bring beast master and puppet master to the meta as well, it is doable and possible but with the necessity of patience and inspiration and most importantly constructive community feedback.

[Floortank]

Basing success of a job on whether people got the mount is bizarre. It could be a reaction to the Binding Coils and Alexander (Savage) as much as it is to the Job. Maybe people don't want to do that content, but love their BLU.

"BLU failed because people didn't do this content" is nonsense.

[ReiMakoto]

Basing success of a job on whether people got the mount is bizarre. It could be a reaction to the Binding Coils and Alexander (Savage) as much as it is to the Job. Maybe people don't want to do that content, but love their BLU.

"BLU failed because people didn't do this content" is nonsense.

It is the only metric of measurable success other than feelycraft that is why it is being used. It represents people putting considerable time and effort into blu, something the other trackable stats to not.

But if we are taking feelycraft here, just look at any of the blu content discords, they were saying its been hard to find groups since week 2 of release, youll get 1 or maybe 2 posts looking for groups daily that take a while to fill. Pfs stay up for upwards of an hour just for skills, let alone blu log runs which take an age to fill if they fill at all. But thats all subjective feelycraft which other people can dispute with their own subjective experience (or fibs). This is why people try to use data.

Edit: btw, I am very much in the camp of loves blue mage but wont do morbol mount btw. And therin lies the issue. I find playing as and being a blue mage fun, yet one needs to jump through hoops and do years old content to get that fun. For someone like me there is nothing to do on BLU, i have no desire to run old content again sync'd and ive already done what the masked carnival had to offer me in less than an hour. So here I am, stuck with a class that I enjoy and nothing to enjoy it with (other than rarely helping my friends level)

[TurtlesAWD]

It is the only metric of measurable success

I think this definition of "success" is questionable. I haven't gotten the mount but I've played a number of hours of blue mage and I've had a good time. I would consider that, in some capacity, to be a success. And I think the claim that my fun was illegitimate because I don't yet have the shiniest horse would be arbitrary gatekeeping. Not that that's happening here, but it is the general thrust of the diablo-clone MMO is it not? An endlessly increasing number attached to the "hardest" available set of monsters to fight, completion of which becomes the only goal? The push for class streamlining meaning that anything outside the most recently developed 10% of content is literally untouched in favor of what is essentially a repeatable rotation simulator? Honestly I appreciate the class because it's a pushback against that, which is necessary, because MMO's can be more.

The availability of it as the only measurable metric is also untrue. Getting better data from a player end would require more comprehensive polling than anyone should put into the game, but the development team can absolutely measure how many people have completed the story, how many people have completed carnivale, the rate at which certain skills are learned or used, how often people do the weekly entries in carnivale or the log, etc.

[ReiMakoto]

I think this definition of "success" is questionable. I haven't gotten the mount but I've played a number of hours of blue mage and I've had a good time. I would consider that, in some capacity, to be a success. And I think the claim that my fun was illegitimate because I don't yet have the shiniest horse would be arbitrary gatekeeping. Not that that's happening here, but it is the general thrust of the diablo-clone MMO is it not? An endlessly increasing number attached to the "hardest" available set of monsters to fight, completion of which becomes the only goal? The push for class streamlining meaning that anything outside the most recently developed 10% of content is literally untouched in favor of what is essentially a repeatable rotation simulator? Honestly I appreciate the class because it's a pushback against that, which is necessary, because MMO's can be more.

The availability of it as the only measurable metric is also untrue. Getting better data from a player end would require more comprehensive polling than anyone should put into the game, but the development team can absolutely measure how many people have completed the story, how many people have completed carnivale, the rate at which certain skills are learned or used, how often people do the weekly entries in carnivale or the log, etc.

Nice strawman, I never once tried to claim that your fun was illegitimate. From the player end, right now, it is the only measurable success metric, that was what i was talking about, there hasnt been comprehensive polling and we are not privy to the devs data. That is all I was saying, that it is all we have to base success off of from a more objective standpoint. You cannot have an objective measure of fun, cos some people could find staring at bricks fun

Edit: what youve said doesnt really apply to BLU either, BLU is doing what other classes are doing as a "rotation repeating simulator" just theyre doing it in a older part of the game and they gave a larger variety buttons to make people feel like theyre doing something different. Fundamentally if youre not doing blu raids, youre just running dungeons with a beefed up class. Blu has a rotation its doing and repeating in this content with an illusion of choice of skills. So its only a pushback in the sense that the rewards are placed in existing content , not new content

[TurtlesAWD]

I'm not saying that you claimed my fun was illegitimate, that part was intended as a hypothetical. I tried to make this clear but it may not have come across that way. Most of that post was an extrapolation of the development path of other MMO's and where I think it's led and how it's impacted the community around it rather than being a direct response but I probably didn't differentiate where the response ended and that extrapolation began.

[Liam_Harper]

Basing success of a job on whether people got the mount is bizarre. It could be a reaction to the Binding Coils and Alexander (Savage) as much as it is to the Job. Maybe people don't want to do that content, but love their BLU.

"BLU failed because people didn't do this content" is nonsense.

You can't win with these forums.

If your thoughts are based on facts, the facts aren't good enough and don't represent enough people. If you go by impressions, it's not good enough because you don't have statistics and facts.

No one in my FC plays BLU. No one on my FL or linkshells play it. There are 0 groups in PF right now. There are 0 BLU mages beside the carnival NPC on my realm. Why do we need to pour development resources into this because a tiny handful on the forums who also have zero statistics (and probably don't play BLU much either) think it's doing ok?

[TeraTyrantShadic]

You can't win with these forums.

If your thoughts are based on facts, the facts aren't good enough and don't represent enough people. If you go by impressions, it's not good enough because you don't have statistics and facts.

No one in my FC plays BLU. No one on my FL or linkshells play it. There are 0 groups in PF right now. There are 0 BLU mages beside the carnival NPC on my realm. Why do we need to pour development resources into this because a tiny handful on the forums who also have zero statistics (and probably don't play BLU much either) think it's doing ok?

This thread isn't about winning a side, this thread is to suggest ideas and come together as a community to help give creative and constructive ideas for the developers and Yoshida to work with. If they will ever see this thread. However I can agree with your statement on that we don't have the statistical data to make a clear judgement weather or not that Blue Mage is a successful idea.

Hearing your personal experience disheartens me, but I agree not many are playing as Blue Mage. As of this posting they are used to cheese Aurum Vale for the Irregular Tomestones and when that is over Blue Mage will be down to either a small handful of players or to no one. I am not sure who said it was in an ok-state, however I have to say it does prove a point in my document. When it uses the hype Blue Mage's popularity soars through the sky, but overtime after a month or a week the activity of use such class will die down. Which is why I think either making 2 separate Blue Mages is good as a few on this thread have suggested or removing limited job status altogether and from then on developing proper full jobs allowing them to run in current general content. Not everyone will be pleased or happy. However it is these times where we need to come together and solve the puzzle together and lend our ideas and creativity to developers to solve their vision of Blue Mage without altering too much that it loses its identity. We don't decide weather the developers will be pouring development time into it, but it never hurts to try.