Suggesting Ideas for Blue Mage with feedback & Removing Limited Job Status

[SpiralMask]

. . .

it doesnt really matter how 1k potency varies between classes (likely due to weapon base damage, stat scaling, and backend calculations on the skills themselves), i'm talking about the existing case of a class having ready access to something that absolutely crushes content not being out of the norm at this point, so BLU wouldn't exactly be some weird extreme outlier. i do still agree that the gauge is a solid idea to limit some of the more crazy stuff

[Awha]

I get the idea for SE to make BLU a "full" but we have to be realistic here, will SE really put in the effort and resources to make two different versions of BLU? People do enjoy current BLU, and throwing them under the bus because people want a full job seems selfish. Sure we can say as fans and costumers we can say they can have the time and resources to do both, but we cannot say that for certain.

[Morningstar1337]

^ This, all older content is broken due to the power creep of newer jobs. DNC is a blender at lower levels because it has both standard step, and very powerful aoe combo from level 15. When stormblood launched rdm had Verthunder/aero at level 15 also with the same strength they had at level 70.

Let us not forget AST is the Job that got their panic button the earliest, where as the other two Healer's equivalents are either capstones or close enough to it.

[SpiralMask]

Let us not forget AST is the Job that got their panic button the earliest, where as the other two Healer's equivalents are either capstones or close enough to it.

lbr that's one of the only thing AST has going for it right now, and pointing it out makes me worried it'll be next for the dev pruning shears if they notice

[ReiMakoto]

I get the idea for SE to make BLU a "full" but we have to be realistic here, will SE really put in the effort and resources to make two different versions of BLU? People do enjoy current BLU, and throwing them under the bus because people want a full job seems selfish. Sure we can say as fans and costumers we can say they can have the time and resources to do both, but we cannot say that for certain.

No one denies some people enjoy blu, most people want a best of both worlds approach which if you read my post last page could save resources if it was done instead of a new job, however given the stats we do have, the people who enjoy BLU is very low, like the number of people with the morbol mount in EU is measure in the 10s-20s per world. Significantly more people have cleared TEA than that. I would be willing to bet more people would get enjoyment out of BLU by maining it in an ulimited setting than currently get enjoyment out of limited blu. Vastly more people.

[SpiralMask]

No one denies some people enjoy blu, most people want a best of both worlds approach which if you read my post last page could save resources if it was done instead of a new job, however given the stats we do have, the people who enjoy BLU is very low, like the number of people with the morbol mount in EU is measure in the 10s-20s per world. Significantly more people have cleared TEA than that. I would be willing to bet more people would get enjoyment out of BLU by maining it in an ulimited setting than currently get enjoyment out of limited blu. Vastly more people.

at least personally, maining it was my biggest interest the second rumors started circulating, and I was super hyped when the CEO came out in costume for it. and then the announcements on what "limited jobs" actually were/entailed crushed that. at the very least I wanted to try NG+ with it once it was announced or just solo through it all, but even that's largely off the table due to the party mechanics and duty/instanced content requirements involved.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

This would probably be the best direction to go to allow BLU have more content access, but Im sure you would agree that the immediate knee jerk reaction would be "It's not really a full class/BLU is being punished". It undermines what youre trying to do. It will still be limited.

To be honest, I doubt that would be the reaction. Let's be honest and say we redesign how the spells works and they are work at certain levels, similar like unlocking a skill at every level. Even in FFXI when you learn a skill from a mob, you have to meet the level requirement to actually use it. So, that would be fair. But if its restriction of overpowered spells, it is not punishing it is called giving every DPS a chance to shine rather than playing favorites and say that Blue Mage is the optimal DPS for everything. Sure some will complain, but we can't please everybody. Personally I am ok with that, at least we are on the same playing field with the other DPS allowing them to learn their class at the early stages of leveling.

Yes, this would be semi functional, where youd use a rotation to build up resources to use BLU skills. My immediate thought though is this seems a bit to thematically similar to RDM, even if its inversed. RMD Does the hybrid caster/melee thing, SMN has pets, and BLM is glass cannon magic man. Having blue use both melee/caster would kind of overlap with RDM in a thematic sense. This wouldnt be inherently bad but it would raise some quizzical eyebrows. The only issue then is role selection issues. How would this function for healer particularly.

Similar to Red Mage job gauge is a bit of a stretch, Red Mages have 2 bars and perhaps with consequences of not balancing the gauge. Red Mage is about balancing the 2 bar Black and White Magic. If one is too much the other, then it'll be harder to earn the opposite magic type which in turn punishes your DPS since you need to do your melee combo. The concept I suggested in my document is that of a combo and build up without 2 bars and having to create a combo in order to use certain skills. It is not the definitive solution but a suggestion and very different to that of a Red Mage's Job Gauge.

The issues then, since were talking about learned skills in a DF or PF environment, comes down a few things. For one, how many skills do you need to bring a BLU into a dungeon? You would have to enforce a minimum. Then it comes down to which skills can and cant be learned/used. For example, technically you can learn about any skill currently as long as you meet the basics of seeing the enemy die and tagging it and not being dead. Not impossible, but you could get mountain buster at lvl 10 with an undersized party. So having a BLU come into a low level dungeon via DF but having Mountain Buster (or similar) is a balance issue. Not game breaking, but annoying enough. The only current solution I can see that is viable is skills have a gauge cost, and the stronger skills eat more of the gauge. For example, you could learn Mountain buster at lvl 1, but if it takes 60 energy, and your gauge has a max of 30 at that level, there is no point in learning it other than getting it out of the way. In synced content, gauge would sync down to appropriate level to prevent certain skills. As for skills needed, a tier system would need to be implemented - you need 15 skills to queue for dungeons between lvl 15-20. 20 Skills for 20-30, 25 for 30-40...etc. This way you need a bare minimum of abilities so you cant go in without skills.

Which is why I suggested at the start of the Blue Mage story line give them a set of spells to work with. So that they can start running dungeons, that way it will be easier for Blue Mages to learn spells that are only available through Duty Finder.

Being honest here, going by levels. At best if they really want to learn an AoE as soon as possible, starting from level 15, they have to head to Tam-Tara Deepcroft and easily learn Mind Blast their first AoE spell, If its gonna be annoying then you could say the same for Range and Caster, they learn AoE Spells as early as Level 12 for Black mage (Blizzard II); Level 10 for Summoner (Egi Assault I, Level 10 with Emerald Carbuncle); Level 15/18 with Red Mage (Scatter is too long but Verthunder II is not). All of these have a cast time except for Summoner where its more of an order than a spell. Granted Mind Blast has a faster cast time than than the other casters, while range it is instantly. I would also like to point out that some of their AoE still have the the first enemy will take 100% of the damage while the rest suffer 50%. So I doubt it will be annoying to say the least. But Again, if we did the level sync and place every spell under a level requirement, there is fair chance for all caster and range to AoE the mobs down fast.

However what you suggested for Job Gauge increase the max points per 10 level is a great way to balance the job out early in the levels.

Beyond that youd need to set up skill into 4 categories: Defense(Tank), Restoration(Heals), Offense(DPS), and Neutral (all aspects). Remove aetherial mimicry from the game and provide stances instead that you learn as you level of. Each stance grants a bonus that would operate on +5% more damage, or +10% Defense/HP, etc, but in activating these stances, You lose access to all off categories save the neutral aspected stuff which can be used universally. If you do decide not to use any stance, you have access to the full kit but wont be able to use DF cause you cant fulfill a role.

So basically let Blue Mages have 3 Separate leveling system for each role by learning spells that is tailored to a certain role. This may sound like a feasible idea and may just work, I did have a discussion of such an idea but omitted it at first. But since you brought it up it may work.

The final thing still ends up being that certain skills are just that detrimentally strong that they would have to be nerfed. I gave it thought regarding some of this, and the thing that would have to be done to mitigate against this would be debuff the boss twice, so that lets say you use Off Guard, the boss gets a buff or bonus that prevents the reapplication of it for 60 seconds. It isnt perfect but that would help fix atleast one spell. Beyond that, youd still have to figure out how final sting works among other things (create special resistances to it possibly where the boss actively mitigates against these kind of attacks as to make them not worth while overall, or make it a specialized execute that is only useable below 5% hp or something). The other way is just redesigning how final sting operates, where rather than killing you, it just reduces HP to 1 and has a looooong CD on it. But these are two examples that would need to be addressed, and if you want BLU to flex and be any role, there is a ton of work that needs to be done in regards to how tank and healer roles are.

Another great suggesstion, and I believe FFXI already have the solution for that, when a Blue Mage uses Self Destruct or Final Sting (Its in the game), They will gain weakness, they will be alive but they will have weakness. If we adapt it to FFXIV's system we could say they gain the debuff Brink of Death.

And while the suggestions I provided might work, I want to remind you that these kind of things would require rebuilding the class from the ground up. This isnt something I think the Devs are interested in doing.

That is fine, suggestion like these are there to help the developers to build their. In providing feedback and suggestion the developers would have an understanding as to what the player base or community wants. Those who are vocal in suggesting ideas, bringing ideas on how to make it balance or make it fun can be a great idea. Arguments and Shouting won't yield anything but cooperating, debating and suggesting can lead to a possibility that Blue Mage may be the next Job we see in the next expansion.

We are not demanding a rebuild of a class, we are just suggesting ideas that can help the developers fully shape their vision for Blue Mage as a proper Job than a side content so that one day Blue Mages and future 'limited' jobs (Hopefully not Limited but a Proper Release). Will have a much easier time Learning Spells (Blue Mage), Taming Beasts (Beast Master) & Getting Puppet Parts (Puppet Master) if content is going to be obtained in dungeons and we can queue with the other Jobs normally in Duty Finder.

So regardless weather you want Blue Mage as a real Job, I'd say its better if everyone and tried to bring up some constructive suggestions and criticism than saying "Blue Mage is too OP! Don't bring it in it'll ruin the game." That is barely helping anyone, this part of the post is address to everyone so we can all try our best to lead Blue Mage to a brighter future alongside with other jobs being planned to be Limited Jobs so we don't need to have the tag and let every job (except DoH/L They craft and gather not battle) participate in the fun we did have queuing in duty finder and enjoying content at their own pace.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

I get the idea for SE to make BLU a "full" but we have to be realistic here, will SE really put in the effort and resources to make two different versions of BLU? People do enjoy current BLU, and throwing them under the bus because people want a full job seems selfish. Sure we can say as fans and costumers we can say they can have the time and resources to do both, but we cannot say that for certain.

That is what my document and this thread is here to do, bring the attention to Blue Mages and how we can improve them, as of this reply I am copying your suggestions and quoting them in the document. ;3

[basketofseals]

No one denies some people enjoy blu, most people want a best of both worlds approach which if you read my post last page could save resources if it was done instead of a new job, however given the stats we do have, the people who enjoy BLU is very low, like the number of people with the morbol mount in EU is measure in the 10s-20s per world. Significantly more people have cleared TEA than that. I would be willing to bet more people would get enjoyment out of BLU by maining it in an ulimited setting than currently get enjoyment out of limited blu. Vastly more people.

The amount of people playing BLU is proportionate to the amount of work they put into it. I'm sure there's more people that would enjoy as a full job compared to a limited job.

But the question was never whether we would get BLU as a full job or as a limited job. The question for SE was it worth it to make BLU as a limited job or spend those resources on another Gold Saucer minigame.

Not to say that it was easy or anything, but BLU was stupid easy/efficient to make in comparison to a new job. It required one casting animation, 3 very simply designed weapons, an auto attack/vpose/bstance animation, the learning system, and the masked carnival.

It didn't require any new attack animations or even balance.

[ReiMakoto]

The amount of people playing BLU is proportionate to the amount of work they put into it. I'm sure there's more people that would enjoy as a full job compared to a limited job.

But the question was never whether we would get BLU as a full job or as a limited job. The question for SE was it worth it to make BLU as a limited job or spend those resources on another Gold Saucer minigame.

Not to say that it was easy or anything, but BLU was stupid easy/efficient to make in comparison to a new job. It required one casting animation, 3 very simply designed weapons, an auto attack/vpose/bstance animation, the learning system, and the masked carnival.

It didn't require any new attack animations or even balance.

The primal skills did require new animations for BLU, and I'm pretty sure theres about 5 generic casting animations (similar number if a bit less to something like blm), but I understand the point you're making. It also did require balance, or they wouldnt have done a large balance overhaul to BLU before 5.1 where they changed how basically all their existing attacks and nerfed and buffed various skills, it absolutely undergoes a balance procedure which can also be seen by the fact that both level updates to blue it final rotation has had a dps output just a bit higher than standard dps jobs before accounting for self destructs and absurd buffs like mimicry.

But you're right about it taking less effort than existing jobs as the actual spell effects themselves are taken from enemies (except for the blu exclusive skills), however even with the lack of weapons (which they could have recycled as well but didnt) it probably still took considerably more resources than a gold saucer minigame, iirc it competes for dev resources with stuff like ultimate fights iirc.