Monk rework thoughts

[hballamco]

Monk rework thoughts
Hello everyone, I'm happy to post my first thread on FFXIV forums I hope I learn something new from you guys with your ideas, and I also hope that at least some of our thoughts might reach SE developers. Have fun.

Monk rework:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fists (each shares a recast time of 1 second):
FoF:
-increases damage by 5%. (removing the 10% increase from the trait)

FoW:
-requires a trait. I'll call it "Like the Wind." Like the Wind: build stacks up to 100 (2 stacks per 1y) while in combat regardless of current Fists. While in FoW, spend 10 stacks to increase next GCD potency by 20.
-additional movement speed increase.

FoE:
-reduces damage taken by 10%.
-ignore positional req. (reduce positional bonuses by 50%).

Elemental Kick (changes depending on current Fists):

Blaze Kick (new):
-available when FoF is active.
-potency: 500
-recast: 10 sec.

Tornado Kick:
-available when FoW is active.
-potency: 300 (800 if player used the full 100 stacks from "Like the Wind" trait)
-recast: 10 sec.

Fissure Kick (new):
-available when FoE is active.
-potency: 300 + (2x damage taken while Earth's Reply is active - damage taken that triggers Earth's Reply is counted)
-recast: 10 sec.
-additional effect: if the player takes damage, gain Earth's Reply.
-duration: 5 seconds.

Mantra (changes depending on current Fists):
-HP recovery increases by 5% instead of 10%.
-additional effect based on current Fists:
If FoF: grants lifesteal to nearby party members by 5%.
If FoW: grants increased movement speed to nearby party members.
If FoE: decrease damage taken by nearby party members by 5%.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greased Lightning:
-maximum of 3 GL stacks (4th stack bonus divided equally among the 3).

Six- sided Star:
-granted when 3th GL stack is kept for 60 seconds. (timer starts when 3th GL is up)
-potency: 1,000
-doesn't share recast time with other weapon skills.

Anatman:
-channeling for 2 seconds will grant 3th GL stack.

Form Shift:
-resets GL timer upon execution and adds one stack.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forms:
Opo-opo: same.
Raptor: opens a chakra.
Coeurl: same.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chakra:
-Forbidden Chakra potency: 350 instead of 370.
-remove Deep Meditation I & II traits.
-filling chakra stacks (5 stacks) increases critical and direct hit rates by 5% each.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brotherhood:
-Brotherhood effect: 5% damage increase (affects all damage types).
-Meditative Brotherhood removed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Riddle of Fire:
-rename

Riddle of Earth:
-remove
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you guys have any thoughts please let me know. Thanks all in advance.

[SpeckledBurd]

Just going down the line.

GL 4 being a trait and stance independent is fine and better than it's current implementation.

The Fist changes still doesn't solve the basic problem with the fist stances that have existed forever. There's still going to be one dominant stance that deals the most damage. Plus not being able to change stances mid fight takes away Monk's unique defensive option and it's ability to mitigate damage from lost stacks. Earth stance will now be more useless than ever because we won't even be able to switch into it for spot saves, we'll only ever want to use Fire or Wind based on which is optimal for damage.

The form changes don't solve many of the inherent problems that exist. Leaden Fist/current Dragon Kick keeps there being a single disproportionate positional, Raptor Form skills granting a Chakra is an improvement on pure RNG but you've kept Deep Meditation 1 which should be scrapped entirely.

Anatman as a utility Cooldown at 6 minutes is absurd especially when it's interruptible by needing to move.

Tornado Kick is an improvement I've suggested in the past so I don't mind it.

Six Sided Star's new effect means we'd be using it basically every 10-12 seconds, which really removes the impact that the skill should have.

Form Shift would be a fine thing to implement now, it would functionally just make Monk less spammy in downtime.

The Mantra effect, by tying party offensive buffs to Healing/Support utility ensures that the support utility will never be used. The Fists of Wind effect being a haste to other party members will annoy people who rely on rigid GCD strings for buff alignment such as Samurai and Dragoon. The Earth effect will be useless because Earth will no longer be used. This basically makes Mantra less useful as party support in exchange for an unnecessary extra input for our Burst window.

Brotherhood along with the previously mentioned problem, doesn't solve the issues with Composition dependency and the RNG ensuring that the skill basically is never satisfying to use. You'll still either whiff or inevitably experience periods of Chakra overflow due to the nature of the gauge.

Tl;dr: There's some decent ideas in there but broadly this causes more problems than it fixes.

[hballamco]

The Fist changes still doesn't solve the basic problem with the fist stances that have existed forever. There's still going to be one dominant stance that deals the most damage. Plus not being able to change stances mid fight takes away Monk's unique defensive option and it's ability to mitigate damage from lost stacks. Earth stance will now be more useless than ever because we won't even be able to switch into it for spot saves, we'll only ever want to use Fire or Wind based on which is optimal for damage.

Fists of Earth doesn't just give 10% reduced damage but ignores positional requirements with reduced positional bonuses as I mentioned. So, it might be competing with FoF and FoW in terms of dps output. Also, I mentioned an adjustment to Riddle of Earth ability which will grant other Fists bonuses, so changing between Fists might be neglected.

The form changes don't solve many of the inherent problems that exist. Leaden Fist/current Dragon Kick keeps there being a single disproportionate positional, Raptor Form skills granting a Chakra is an improvement on pure RNG but you've kept Deep Meditation 1 which should be scrapped entirely.

I thought that by just removing Deep Meditation II and reducing FC potency is enough to balance it with the new raptor bonus.

Anatman as a utility Cooldown at 6 minutes is absurd especially when it's interruptible by needing to move.

Anatman currently is rarely used during boss fights except in opener and between phases, so I don't think it is too much when you count the rewards (after 3 seconds, you are ready to punch!). Also, since i fixed Form Shift, you really don't need Anatman for GL timer reset. But yeah, I think reducing recast time would be better. btw, 300 sec. = 5 minutes XD

Six Sided Star's new effect means we'd be using it basically every 10-12 seconds, which really removes the impact that the skill should have.

The skill as of now is trash imo. Level 80 ability which ruins your rotation flow is not a good ability for monk even if you use it before boss leaves, the dps gain from this ability is almost nothing. That is why I thought about rebuilding it.

The Mantra effect, by tying party offensive buffs to Healing/Support utility ensures that the support utility will never be used. The Fists of Wind effect being a haste to other party members will annoy people who rely on rigid GCD strings for buff alignment such as Samurai and Dragoon. The Earth effect will be useless because Earth will no longer be used. This basically makes Mantra less useful as party support in exchange for an unnecessary extra input for our Burst window.

That's a good point. Maybe leaving Mantra as it is as well as Brotherhood except changing Brotherhood effect from physical damage to all damage types.

Thanks for your reply

[Shurrikhan]

Counter/follow-up suggestions, mostly in theme with what you're suggesting here rather than my own preferences:

• Don't add GL4. It just makes GL more punishing as a mechanic, costing us a vital PB GCD or forcing a tick of Anatman, in our ramp-up. It also siphons away from your throughput budget that could otherwise go towards diversifying your Fists (with individual potencies thereafter being adjusted to compensate).
  If you must, just increase the per-stack value of GL by 33% at level 76, which amounts to exactly the same capacity, but without the added clunk.
  
  
• Give GL itself a Movement Speed-affecting component. That serves to make GL itself more thematically satisfying and to ease positioning for those not in Fists of Wind.
  
  
• Perhaps even level out GL's Damage, Attack Speed, and Movement Speed bonuses to the same 5% per stack. Adjust individual potencies to compensate (TK being adjusted differently, obviously). That leaves them plenty significant, but offers further cohesion.
  
  
• Give FoW an oGCD-affecting component. This could be nearly anything, from a "rush" mechanic to something ripped off Enhanced Infuriate, so long as it still allows for oGCDs to be synced to raid (de)buffs.
  
  
• If you don't go full power on GL, diversify your fists further, and give Earth a real damage mechanic attached to its mitigation (e.g. your oGCDs provide temporary, rapidly-fading armor at a portion of damage dealt; damage thus absorbed temporarily increases your Attack Power, making it competitive in certain fights).
  
  
• Keep the Mantra effects purely defensive, as not to force Fists of Fire in all 8-man content, such as by adding Movement Speed via Wind, Lifesteal via Fire, and Mitigation via Earth. Feel free to leave that part out of Brotherhood out of the power budget if you like, though, in favor of more personal/direct contribution.

Questions:

• Why go to all this trouble on SSS to make it a Shoha instead of SSS when you can just buff it nearer to the average ppgcd and it'd already see a fair bit of use, especially if you put more of Monk's power budget into its general power CD(s), be that Riddle of Fists, Internal Release, or both? Heck, even just 520 potency would see it used by mid-SkS Monks in your FoF.

Grumbles:

• Mutter mutter Form Shift still resetting GL like some kind of mock mechanic instead of any attempt to balance TK or LF and give us back more frequent GL generators mutter mutter.

[SpeckledBurd]

Fists of Earth doesn't just give 10% reduced damage but ignores positional requirements with reduced positional bonuses as I mentioned. So, it might be competing with FoF and FoW in terms of dps output. Also, I mentioned an adjustment to Riddle of Earth ability which will grant other Fists bonuses, so changing between Fists might be neglected.

It wouldn't at all, positionals aren't so difficult that people miss them even 50% of the time in even the most difficult content, and the goal of DPS maximization will ultimately land you in FoF or FoW.

I'd also say asking for changes to the Fist Stances is pointless and they should just be turned into traits. People have asked for the Fist Stances to have new traits or effects for two expansions and all we've gotten is brilliant traits like 4.0 Tackle Mastery, Enhanced Riddle of Fire, and GL4 tied to Fists of Wind. Maybe we'd get an interesting new trait that allows for some feeling of advancement if the devs focused on an aspect of the job they demonstrably can't make into anything but button bloat.

I thought that by just removing Deep Meditation II and reducing FC potency is enough to balance it with the new raptor bonus.

The problem with the RNG isn't balance or even ouput, it's the existence of the RNG itself. The Monk playerbase has been dissatisfied with the RNG aspects since they were introduced in stormblood, it's incredibly unsatisfying on most jobs that employ it in my opinion. Raptor Form Chakras allows for consistent output which is good, and that alone is better than RNG on its own, or even coupled with RNG.

Anatman currently is rarely used during boss fights except in opener and between phases, so I don't think it is too much when you count the rewards (after 3 seconds, you are ready to punch!). Also, since i fixed Form Shift, you really don't need Anatman for GL timer reset. But yeah, I think reducing recast time would be better. btw, 300 sec. = 5 minutes XD

Yes, and 5 minutes is substantially too long. If you want Anatman to be good for recovery it has to be actually be available for use, at a 5 minute timer it's actually worse than Perfect Balances original 4 minute timer in that regard. Having to channel it also just makes it worse than Blood of the Dragon or Enochian which are just buttons for granting a buff identical in purpose to GL.

Plus if Tornado Kick no longer burns stacks then a powerful recovery skill doesn't automatically introduce excess potency.

[hballamco]

Thanks for your generous reply.

Don't add GL4. It just makes GL more punishing as a mechanic, costing us a vital PB GCD or forcing a tick of Anatman, in our ramp-up. It also siphons away from your throughput budget that could otherwise go towards diversifying your Fists (with individual potencies thereafter being adjusted to compensate).
If you must, just increase the per-stack value of GL by 33% at level 76, which amounts to exactly the same capacity, but without the added clunk.

This is indeed a brilliant idea considering the work to bring all 4 GL stacks after losing them. 3 GL stacks would make the monk blend in the fight faster which is not the case currently imo.

Keep the Mantra effects purely defensive, as not to force Fists of Fire in all 8-man content, such as by adding Movement Speed via Wind, Lifesteal via Fire, and Mitigation via Earth. Feel free to leave that part out of Brotherhood out of the power budget if you like, though, in favor of more personal/direct contribution.

True, just @SpeckledBurd mentioned, diverging Mantra's effects would cause confusion in fights as to whether to use it for healing or damage.

Thanks again.

[hballamco]

Thanks to SpeckledBurd and Shurrikhan for their valuable feedback. I've refined the rework. Please let me know about new adjustments.

[Shurrikhan]

Thanks to SpeckledBurd and Shurrikhan for their valuable feedback. I've refined the rework. Please let me know about new adjustments.

• FoF still feels relatively forced across high-per-execute-potency Weaponskills and any globals with a damaging Ability. Given how frequent those are, I suspect most Monks will want to merely stay in FoF 24/7. FoW also cannot be used consistently for alternative rotation loops at transitional SkS thresholds because Leaden Fist does not consistently align with Demolish. I'd again recommend adding an oGCD-affecting component to FoW -- ideally a fun one.
• I don't understand the purpose of the "(500 if player lands 12 direct hits while this ability is ready)" clause on Tornado Kick and Blaze Kick. Moreover, I'd prefer to see the two kicks differentiated. Your Fissure Kick will likely be useless or obligatory.
• I'm still not sold on SSS being a Shoha-knockoff.

[hballamco]

• FoF still feels relatively forced across high-per-execute-potency Weaponskills and any globals with a damaging Ability. Given how frequent those are, I suspect most Monks will want to merely stay in FoF 24/7. FoW also cannot be used consistently for alternative rotation loops at transitional SkS thresholds because Leaden Fist does not consistently align with Demolish. I'd again recommend adding an oGCD-affecting component to FoW -- ideally a fun one.
• I don't understand the purpose of the "(500 if player lands 12 direct hits while this ability is ready)" clause on Tornado Kick and Blaze Kick. Moreover, I'd prefer to see the two kicks differentiated. Your Fissure Kick will likely be useless or obligatory.
• I'm still not sold on SSS being a Shoha-knockoff.

Hey Shurrikhan, that's true, I don't think someone would trade FoW current bonus for SkS interruption. So, I'm thinking of adding 5% crit. hit bonus to FoW instead of haste. What do you think? As for Blaze and Tornado kicks, my concept is to give a player the feel of challenge that might affect his/her sub-stats build instead of pure potency ability although I do think there is something better to do with them. I think Fissure Kick would be extremely powerful if you think about raid-wide AoEs (E5s > Judgment Volts, E6s > Infernal Howl, E7s > Empty Wave, etc.). Thus, a player would technically plan to switch to FoE just before an AoE and cast Fissure Kick then switch back to whatever he likes or maybe stay. For SSS, my brain was squeezed too much to come up with this result XD any suggestions?

Thanks a lot.

[FoxCh40s]

Does anyone else find it odd that the community can come up with such in depth analysis of the job, with insightful reworks (usually just as one person), but an entire companies worth of employees cant seem to even do anything meaningful with the jobs abilities or additions?