Is TBN a bad skill?

[FallenWings]

Frankly there should be more skills like TBN in a tanks kit to so that defensive actions hold more weight and aren't just effectively glamorized "Duty Action" buttons that force groups to have a tank in their composition. The argument that defensives shouldn't be mixed with damage is a shallow 'quality of life' that simply deteoriates tank complexity further so that people can continue to play Blue DPS without having to deal with *ugh* tank mechanics. /s

A tank optimizing their defensive CDs should aid in the win condition and not just be an action that simply prevents loss. We need more kit interactions and not standalone buttons that have no synergy with eachother.

In regards to the value of TBN within the DRK kit.

TBN is 3000 mana spent to gain 25% HP and 500+ potency.

Edge of Night is 500 potency.


Most of the time being healthier and more sturdy does absolutely nothing and that is a design flaw of tanks as a whole. But the idea that TBN is a "neutral" button in comparison to Edge is misguided. You gain 25% hp shield (and a stored Edge over the cap to burst in raid buffs; as neutered as they are now). Whether you value that or not is up to you. But the mindset breeds too many garbage dps DRKs with minimal/no TBN usage.

[Hierro]

Most of the time being healthier and more sturdy does absolutely nothing and that is a design flaw of tanks as a whole. But the idea that TBN is a "neutral" button in comparison to Edge is misguided. You gain 25% hp shield (and a stored Edge over the cap to burst in raid buffs; as neutered as they are now). Whether you value that or not is up to you. But the mindset breeds too many garbage dps DRKs with minimal/no TBN usage.

I don't know if I'd go as far as saying that calling TBN bad creates a population of DRKs that avoid the button like the plague, but you've stated that there's no point to being tankier most of the time, and TBN's sturdiness makes it less apt to being thrown out for autos. You realistically have a button that's only going to be used for specific mechanics i.e. raidwides and tankbusters. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the slightest, it's perfect for a tank's function, but is limited in ways the other tanks' CDs are not, while others have been just as effectiveness in such situations as well.

[FallenWings]

TBN itself doesn't necessarily create the bad population.

I'm just miffed that people spread it around that TBN shouldn't be pressed more often when it is a virtually free 25% HP gain over Edge. Virtually because it requires a modicum of fight optimization and inadvertently hemorrhages your DPS for willy nilly spamming it without regard. Which in my eyes is a good tank mechanic. Mitigating meaningfully and effectively *should* enable the tank player into a gain, even if minor.

It is usually DPS neutral. But it is a HP gain and that is something that is always left out when advice about it is given. Something tank players should inherently value and optimize more for when/if it gains them healer dps ironically.

SE failing to make mitigation/healing impactful/meaningful/difficult and the community's fairly justified fixation on ONRY DPS as the only valued metric makes for a bad time to be a tank. Especially in our current state of low impact, low difficulty DPS rotation difficulty, and overall poor auto tanking fight designs.

FFlogs should showcase a tanks CD usage alongside their percentile tbh. No more people seeing orange parses and assuming good tank when said parses have like 1 rampart casts, 1 Shadow wall casts and 3 tbn casts for a 13 minute fight.

[Awful]

TBN is actually busted I used to use it in E4S during the final Stonecrusher where I could Rampart + TBN then Living Dead the rest of the hits + Double tank stack and live with a Bene made it so we only had to use 1 tank for that it's pretty absurd, it's up for every TB too or whenever I need to cover my co-tank in E6S. On that note though I see where Xenos is coming from it is DPS neutral and they shouldn't tie those into the realm of tank DPS because it's not very well designed, you have to time TBN in E5S to break once you start getting more gear on a more stricter time vs say Garuda on the pull in E6S because it'll break much easier, same in E7S the auto attacks don't break the shield as fast.

I do like TBN though it's the only thing that defines DRK in this lack of class identity that we're in having an absurd on-demand tank CD is amazing and when you can get creative with it it's amazing, I've saved so many people in the raid too not just myself but it's not without its faults. You should never ignore TBN though if a TB is gonna hit you and you have it up use it, just because someone said they don't like it or that they hate it doesn't mean it's not good tanks still need to use CDs regardless of the situation either if it's their own hide or someone elses.

[Lukeal]

Frankly there should be more skills like TBN in a tanks kit to so that defensive actions hold more weight and aren't just effectively glamorized "Duty Action" buttons that force groups to have a tank in their composition. The argument that defensives shouldn't be mixed with damage is a shallow 'quality of life' that simply deteoriates tank complexity further so that people can continue to play Blue DPS without having to deal with *ugh* tank mechanics. /s

Honestly when you put it that way, Gunbreaker really fits that *Blue DPS* mentality. I didn't really pay much attention to it until now but none of its mitigation really has any weight to it. HoS is ok but the brutal shell effect on it feels like an afterthought; Aurora is good but due to its healing it really feels like Second Wind except in regen form. None of it's abilities have tank weight if that makes any sense, the only thing it's got going for is the Continuation combo which just sends it much further into the "Blue Dps" category than the other three tanks that i'm starting to wonder if it was initially supposed to be a Maiming Dps like DRG and then they dropped that idea cause they really for some reason wanted another Tank. Gunbreaker in this light feels more like an evolution of how people have been playing tanks for years now with the DPS mindset while they really SHOULD be looking at dark knights TBN for a a good example of Tank identity.

[Kleeya]

TBN, best tanking skill ever. I feel naked when i dont have it anymore when synched under 70. It even allows you to negate some debuffs launched at you and do some stunts other jobs can not do. For example do you see that nasty piercing debuff marker Nariphon can give you right before a piercing damage stack marker on another player ? With TBN you can laugh of the first marker, and go stack after that to help the other players out.

But still i am not suprised to see yet again people complaining of it because it hurts their beloved dps and orange parses on fflogs. They did learn nothing of the butchering of the old AST cards, so yes let's TBN become another plain rempart cd and complain after that that tanks jobs are becoming more and more the same, SE why do you homogenize jobs that much ? XD

I sometimes wonder if we shouldn't get rid of the trinity, makes every jobs dps ones, gives them all a viable defensive and healing skill, and be done with it.

FFlogs should showcase a tanks CD usage alongside their percentile tbh. No more people seeing orange parses and assuming good tank when said parses have like 1 rampart casts, 1 Shadow wall casts and 3 tbn casts for a 13 minute fight.

I still don't get how it isn't already a thing, along with how well healers have been healing, rezzing, mitigating, and not overhealing.

[KageTokage]

The only thing I don't like about TBN is that it has a rather pronounced delay before it actually triggers compared to a lot of other defensive cooldowns.

[Vyrerus]

This isn't a surprising take from Xenosys Vex. I've raided with him before, and I used to watch his guide vids. He's very DPS centered on tank. That's his whole jam. He was a WAR main for a long time, and in FCoB he totally overlotted the tomestone and took it instead of the DPS in his group, on their first clear of Phoenix. He's that much into believing in tanks doing a lot of DPS, as much DPS as possible. In Heavensward he was notorious for telling his healers, "I wasn't topped." when he died from either popping a CD late or not just manning up and going into Defiance to Equilibrium himself(healer dead or stunned or something). Someone even made that bike meme about him, the one where the rider thrusts the pipe into their own spoke, and then blames their crash on someone else. Obviously he's a very good player, and operates well in a hardcore raid environment where blame flies back and forth, and while nobody is super duper consistent at clearing, they're hella good at DPSing and rotations and just need to one run where they're clean to win. His opinions are really only ever reflective of that type of group and environment though, not of the game at large.

So, of course he doesn't like The Blackest Night. Nevermind the fact that it lets you have all sorts of fun. Like in Eden 1 Savage I used it so that melee DPS could double up their gravity puddles, positioning wasn't a bear, and it always triggered my consolation Edge/Flood. It's a shame they toned down Savage boss auto attack damage. In the 3rd and 4th tiers of Savage in Stormblood for each tier, you could usually have your TBK break from the boss's autos alone, in one or two, depending on the boss. You just had to time it right. Easier to do as the off tank back then too.

Also people say it's "DPS neutral." Only when accounting for the DRK's personal DPS. As long as it saves your healers a GCD, that GCD goes to damage, and that GCD is pretty much at the strength of the Edge you lose if you screw the pooch. Raid DPS wise, it's an indirect gain, when used properly, and a bigger gain if you can use it so that DPS may bypass disengaging/keep uptime. Plus, if its use saves someone from death, this is rare, but if it does... that loss prevention can make or break a clear.

[Sylvain]

I personally use it whenever I know it can pop, TB, raid burster, autoattack, dps with 2 vuln, healer during share in memoria because one dps can't see the "2" above the healer's head .
And while it does not pop sometimes, overtime you learn where it actually can pop.
And I love it, especially when I see how much dmg it absorbed over the course of a fight .
I like trying to optimise where I can use it

[ArianeEwah]

Also people say it's "DPS neutral." Only when accounting for the DRK's personal DPS. As long as it saves your healers a GCD, that GCD goes to damage, and that GCD is pretty much at the strength of the Edge you lose if you screw the pooch. Raid DPS wise, it's an indirect gain, when used properly, and a bigger gain if you can use it so that DPS may bypass disengaging/keep uptime. Plus, if its use saves someone from death, this is rare, but if it does... that loss prevention can make or break a clear.

The thing about that is... in most cases IT DOES NOT save a GCD from a healer. And that in probably more than 90% of this (end) game's content. Maybe an oGCD, but then its a wasted resource anyway. (WHM might be an exception bc of their lily/heavy GCD healing design)
Even if it does save your healer a GCD compared to... let's say GNB: GNB DPS is no doubt higher than DRK, but it's a safe investment into dps. TBN is not, quite the opposite. As I said above, TBN saving a GCD heal is already unlikely. Using it only when you know it will break, is indeed "DPS neutral" at best. You can experiment in duty fights to optimize TBN uptime, and still make sure it breaks. That still doesn't guarantee it will bring your healers more dps. This is a gamble with high risk/effort, low reward.
The only (not even a) handful duties -where TBN shines- are Ultimates. Ultimate AAs, raid wide etc. deal so much damage that the shield breaking during its duration is 99% guarateed. So much, I would even say it's overpowered.

But is TBN bad or good? The shield and its short CD would be overpowered without the mana (gauge) cost. But is the cost and risk of losing it bad or good? Neither, imho it's just bad designed. It does what it is supposted to do. Overmitigation will result in (own) dps loss. Which in theory should give healers more time to dps.
The problem is the practice. Healers at lvl 70 (at which TBN is unlocked) onward have so many oGCD healing abilities, overmitigation with TBN will most likely NOT result in higher healer dps. And the occational usage of TBN (e.g. 1-1½ uses/min) with a guaranteed break doesn't really grant more effective mitigation than any other short-CD mitigation.
Its good points lie in Ultimates and early progression. Less defense + less HP in early progression, while healing power is also lower -> more likely to break, yet great HP save. In contrast to the other CDs, TBN doesn't actually scale well. While the shield increases with your (or others) HP, so does defense. Thus TBN becomes harder to break in situations, where it did before. The healing power of your healers will also increase, which makes them less dependent on GCD heals by nature.

So again: Bad or good? Neither, yet both. Good as early progression tool, bad or mediocre as standard CD. High risk, low reward. Overpowered in Ultimates, yet bad designed. Great, and the reason DRKs toolkit as a whole becomes mediocre instead of just bad? The shield is necessary, but the design is annoying. Pick your poison.