Is TBN a bad skill?

[Lersayil]

Personally, design wise I would hold it up as the golden standard for what mitigation skills should aim for. Powerful, highly available, but with drawbacks when mismanaged. I also like that it comes with a price to personal dps when you mess up, not just healer dps. Tanks usually care a lot less about the latter.

[ArianeEwah]

There more to Xeno's explanation than just "I hate it, and I know I am the minority". He created a video about tanks shortly after he leveled every single one to 80.
He does acknowlegde that the shield itself is great, even better than every other mitigation action in comparison (inv excluded ofc). It's effectively 20% mitigation, but it keeps your HP save, while all the other CDs do not. The shield is not his issue.
His issue is that it is not just tied to your damage, but also to one of your highest damage action you have. It not pop'in is a huge damage loss, and it is a trend only tied to DRK for some reason. In HW DRK actually gained damage by using CDs, namely Dark Dance for Low Blow and Reprisal procs. In SB, TBN was equivalent to 140 pot while granting a only 20%/10% shield, even pop'in it was neutral at best, only in Grit it was a gain thx to Bloodspillers Grit potency. In ShB however, TBN is equal to 500! pot, and it grants a stronger shield than before.
Xeno also said that TBN has a huge potential to be really good action -maybe even the best- as long as it's not tied to your damage the way it is now!

imho, it was already bad designed in SB, but less flawed than it was today. It's the same with Inner Release being a bad (or lame) design, but it was less flawed in SB because it did the most damage and generated the highest enmity -in addition to Unchained- on pull.

Here comes the more controversial part
Let's make a really stupid comparison to SAM' Third Eye. Current Third Eye procs on 1 single damage, doesn't cost anything and is a slight dps gain if proc is used on Seigan for 15 Kenki.
Now imagine Third Eye gets the "TBN treatment": instead of mitigation, you gain a shield, it would cost 25 Kenki, and let's you use 1 "free" Shinten when proc'ed -but you gain nothing if it doesn't. You do the same damage you'd do otherwise, and if not, at least your healers don't have to heal as much. Ain't it great design, right? /s
Every SAM would start a revolt against this.
But worst case it's just 1 lost ability, just use it at the right time! The problem is you, not the ability! /s

Again, SAM is a dps, and DRK a tank, that's why it's a stupid comparison.
Still doesn't change the fact that tying mitigation to your damage -in a negative sense, as in "loss, no gain"- is a bad idea -yes, it even feels bad using it, once you start to think about the fact, you'd have used a Shadow ability anyway.
Neither does it change the fact that using TBN as soon as it comes off CD is bad mitigation. It's just a bad rotation in terms of dps. But dps is what matters the most. It also doesn't guarantee you that it would save a GCD heal.
So, are you good tank because you mitigated most damage, or are you a good tank because you dealt high dps? Where is the line here, what helps the most? Did you save a GCD heal and was it worth? Or did you (over-)mitigate so hard that oGCD heals have gone to waste?

I am sorry that this post isn't as composed as I originally wanted it to be. Guess, I am a little frustrated that the tank role -that I play for more than 3 years- has taken such a beat. The whole role is flooded with flaws, scarcities, and cuts, in addition to the dev team reacting very slow and reserved to any changes whatsoever -on top of the current situation we're facing which delays the excruciatingly slow changes (if any) even further.
Warrior can mitigate/heal more with Nascent Flash if they deal more damage, Vengeance can give additional damage. Gunbreaker can enhance HoS with Brutal Shell (even tho its just a 150 pot shield), and Paladin Intervention with Rampart or Sentinel. Dark Knight is just there, and tells himself "well, at least I come out dps neutral."
And literally every single person I know -those who also played the current iteration of DRK- said that TBN is "just so bad". They confirmed the shield is strong and nice, but the proc mechanic is just so annoying, they end up using it like 3 times in 15 min -outside of Ultimate. In Ultimate, they just play DRK (or healers want them to play it) because TBN just procs on every auto-attack, so there is no risk, which makes it "just so good". Again: without the risk, TBN is "just so good". Otherwise it's "just so bad".

[Recon1o6]

It is quite possibly one of if not the best tank skills in the entire game. FF14 doesn't revolve around raids, its got hours of other content that TBN shines in just as well
At best you store a dark arts weapon attack, even if you are currently at max timer
Most importantly, its mitigation AND free damage if lag kills you and you just get raised

In raid environments its so strong it allows healers to flat out ignore some damage and keep dpsing even if it fails to break. If it succeeds, you are now dps neutral
In casual environments, you can now start using the moron dps as boosts for your own dark arts when they stand in the aoes


Its the last bit of uniqueness and skill in this Warrior clone anyway >> sounds to me like that streamer is the sort of person who focuses purely on dps and not how fun and unique a job can be

[Lilyth]

In however many years and hours I have poured into this game, I never once. Not once, not a single time, come across a party that performed every mechanic properly and then failed the enrage timer.

Not once.

In those many years then I suppose you haven't ever done week 1 savage prog if you've never came across such occurrence. These are actually pretty common on the 4th floor encounters, which are one the very few instances of this game where optimal DPS actually matter: early savage kills.

On topic though, I also think TBN is amazing. The DPS drawback seems pretty fair to me in order to balance such a strong defensive CD.

[Khalithar]

Is it bad? Absolutely not.

Though I have questioned if it really needs a cooldown AND an MP cost, I feel like it could be fine with just one or the other (with an increase in cost maybe) but I don't main drk so I'm not sure if it would be OP.

[Absimiliard]

The only real problem with TNB is its MP consumption being looked at by some as a kick in the DPS, but the reality is that it isn't a DPS loss at all if you're using it properly. It instead becomes DPS neutral by way of allowing you to execute Edge of Shadow or what have you for free upon breaking, thereby cancelling out the potential DPS loss. From a purely defensive perspective it is probably by and far the single most powerful cooldown available to players. I would even go so far as to say it is probably overtuned to a point that is actually comical. Not only does it absorb incoming damage, but it does so after factoring in mitigation from any other CD you may have, essentially giving you the ability to just decide you're not taking damage for the next seven seconds if you happen to be willing to stack it with something like Rampart or Shadow Wall.

[Videra]

Xenonys Vex the streamer the other day kept going on and on about how he thinks TBN is a bad skill. I think his argument is that it's a CD that takes resources to use and thus lowers your overall damage output.

He acknowledges that most people love the skill and he is in the minority. My question is, IS it a bad skill? I mean it's pretty powerful but is it really just a burden to DRK and needs a tweak?

Xenosys is a grumpy boy who, while he knows what he's talking about, is very much in the minority here. TBN is only a DPS loss if it doesn't pop, and that's -extraordinarily- rare if you're using it properly. I can totally see the guy's argument, but I do remember in his old video from just after Shadowbringers he honed in on this possibility way too hard. Just as well, even if TBN doesn't pop on that TB, you just mitigated a whole lot of damage at no health cost. I'd say that's worthwhile enough.

Also, TBN is just plain one of the strongest, consistently usable tank cooldowns in the game.

[Nedkel]

to play devil's advocate for a second, though... for all of it's strengths and uniqueness, TBN is a horribly designed skill. Trying to blend DPS and defensive utility together IS unique.... but pretty flawed. Youre now in a position where you either choose, or throw one of the 2 benefits under the bus. As it stands, TBN isn't used SOLELY for it's shield. It's only used if the shield *will* break. (read: Tankbusters/mass pulls). this diminishes it's usage and it's utility. You're also not using it for it's DPS because it's..... neutral. if it works.

I can certainly see why someone would consider that bad. The other tank cooldowns dont have such a.... "cost" or "tax"

You are wrong, its the best skill in the game with the best design and flavour, at least when it comes to mitigation.

It makes you think and risk, and it does give a big reward, both to you and your healer, it cost something so you cant just use it mindlessly every time its up.
Would it be better if TBN cost nothing and give only 10% shield with 60 sec cooldown without any reward for breaking it? NO NO NO
What a "better designed skill" would look like for you that isnt already a copy-paste thing from another job? Jesus stop pretending you know any better, you guys want to get rid of unique mechanics because you find it annoying, play different job for sake of everything that isnt dumbed down yet to the grey standards, thanks.

I am sorry that this post isn't as composed as I originally wanted it to be. Guess, I am a little frustrated that the tank role -that I play for more than 3 years- has taken such a beat. The whole role is flooded with flaws, scarcities, and cuts, in addition to the dev team reacting very slow and reserved to any changes whatsoever -on top of the current situation we're facing which delays the excruciatingly slow changes (if any) even further.
Warrior can mitigate/heal more with Nascent Flash if they deal more damage, Vengeance can give additional damage. Gunbreaker can enhance HoS with Brutal Shell (even tho its just a 150 pot shield), and Paladin Intervention with Rampart or Sentinel. Dark Knight is just there, and tells himself "well, at least I come out dps neutral."
And literally every single person I know -those who also played the current iteration of DRK- said that TBN is "just so bad". They confirmed the shield is strong and nice, but the proc mechanic is just so annoying, they end up using it like 3 times in 15 min -outside of Ultimate. In Ultimate, they just play DRK (or healers want them to play it) because TBN just procs on every auto-attack, so there is no risk, which makes it "just so good". Again: without the risk, TBN is "just so good". Otherwise it's "just so bad".

Sure compare warrior to the DRK, because that job is such perfect and free from all flaws that its third least played job in the entire game.
TBN is not bad and there is nothing wrong with it the risk is there for the balance factor, the shield is super strong, brings a lot more effective HP comparing to other low cd mitigations but its also risky, and it does not bring any glaring balance problems making DRK a weaker alternative of a tank, instead DRK is a prefered job in the raid thanks to it. Do you realize what would happen if they took away mp cost from it? It would be a copy paste skill of single target shake it off with way higher cooldown and no bonus when breaking it and probably also weaker on top of it because SE would have to balance it out one way or another, would be really bad.

[Daniolaut]

In those many years then I suppose you haven't ever done week 1 savage prog if you've never came across such occurrence. .

.....

you know what....

I've tried to have this conversation countless times.

Suffice it to say Square-Enix completely reworked tanking, enmity, materia melding, and raid-v-crafted accessories.

If that isnt going to tell you anything, nothing I will say ever will.

[Hierro]

TBN is really, really powerful. Other forms of mitigation tend to reduce their effectiveness due to diminishing returns. However, with TBN, other CDs are actually made even stronger because TBN is an increase to health, essentially.

It has a duration of 7 seconds, while being on a 15 second cooldown. If there were no MP cost and completely free, there'd be nothing stopping DRK from slamming the button on cooldown to have 25% more HP than the other tanks half the time. That's absolutely bonkers!

I now have a more nuanced opinion of TBN, however, after knowing the complete freedom of healing with NF on WAR-- It feels nice to be able to use NF with impunity, and in getting in the habit of using that defensive on cooldown, I definitely find myself feeling naked and tempted to slam that button whenever it's lit up. In SB, I would more or less spam TBN whenever I knew autos were incoming, but that's when the bubble was only 20% of your HP. The extra 5% has definitely had an effect and I find myself not popping the bubble when getting in the habit of using it "whenever." This means that TBN has been balanced for tank busters and AoEs+following auto, where you have a guarantee of a pop. Now, you COULD optimize your TBN usages and learn the times when there are longer sequences of autos, but man, that's more work than I care to do.

However, since I feel that this tier has been lackluster in tank-busters, TBN's tankbuster specialty is somewhat overkill. So, all things considered, I think TBN's been overall lowkey nerfed from SB to ShB.

Still an awesome CD tho.