Geomancer

[BasicBlake]

But they do use the same elements though; the best way to think of it is if they decided to add a Cleric to the game, but made it a tank with a hammer; you now have two tanks fulfilling the Holy Protector Knight theme. They’re technically both different on paper, with different skills with different applications, but the Job Fantasy is essentially the same, one just originated from a different location. People say it’d be WHM 2.0 because thematically speaking it kind of is; they both tune to their respective elements (The Elementals and Tengu IIRC) with strong ties to nature. One just loses theirs but it’s still at the core of their Job’s origins. They could rewrite WHM lore so they never had their druid CNJ start but they might as well focus that work on a new Job that doesn’t bleed into one that we already have.

And with RDM there may be some overlap with BLM in terms of spell usage but the key difference is the Class Fantasy. You play BLM if you want to feel like a sorcerer with big spells; you play RDM if you want to feel like a swashbuckling mage with quick fire spells and baller style. There are completely different feelings each Job offers that caters to people looking for that specific thing. It’s a lot harder to separate the class fantasy of two healers with ties to nature.

Your cleric comparison is way better than what I had put. This is what I was trying to get out there. Thank you! Bless.

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

1. My point is that if they didn't need to change anything then they didn't need to make a new job. They did, which clearly indicates it's a bit more complex than you're implying.

2. If they're similar to Conjurers then that's simply an argument for them to be Healers you realize.

3. Red Mages predate FFXI, and again, each iteration of them is different. XI's Red Mages have little in common with XIV's in spite of being the same job because the systems of their respective games are different.

4. None of what I've said is arguing to argue. Pointing out that Geomancers can more than stand on their own is not arguing to argue.

Snip.

1. I mean, I wouldn't say the job fantasy of White Mage is the same as the job fantasy of Geomancer though, so you're not really winning any argument there. I wouldn't call a Druid the same thing as a Geomancer either, but White Mage is pretty divorced from the original Conjurer at this point in terms of aesthetics.

2. The real critical flaw with your argument is that you're ultimately making a subjective argument here. You see Conjurer and Geomancer as the same thing. I don't. WoW has Druid and Shaman for instance. To you those are the same thing. To Blizzard they're different. To others a myriad of different answers. FF has a number of jobs that some would say is the same as another, but others might say they're different. How you feel does not mean it's absolute. To me they do not represent the same "job fantasy" (which is a pointless distinction to me).

[Seraphor]

1. I mean, I wouldn't say the job fantasy of White Mage is the same as the job fantasy of Geomancer though, so you're not really winning any argument there. I wouldn't call a Druid the same thing as a Geomancer either, but White Mage is pretty divorced from the original Conjurer at this point in terms of aesthetics.

2. The real critical flaw with your argument is that you're ultimately making a subjective argument here. You see Conjurer and Geomancer as the same thing. I don't. WoW has Druid and Shaman for instance. To you those are the same thing. To Blizzard they're different. To others a myriad of different answers. FF has a number of jobs that some would say is the same as another, but others might say they're different. How you feel does not mean it's absolute. To me they do not represent the same "job fantasy" (which is a pointless distinction to me).

They're not the same, but they are similar, bordering on too similar.
Like Machinist and Corsair, or Warrior and Viking.

The games lore pretty much establishes that Geomancy/Onmyoji are the eastern equivalents of Conjury/Thaumaturgy.
They're not 'the same', but to use both Geomancy and Conjury as the base of similar jobs, both healers, would be redundant.

Which is why Geomancer would suit a Caster DPS much better, as they can differentiate it from Conjurer.

[MirronTulaxia]

They're not the same, but they are similar, bordering on too similar.
Like Machinist and Corsair, or Warrior and Viking.

The games lore pretty much establishes that Geomancy/Onmyoji are the eastern equivalents of Conjury/Thaumaturgy.
They're not 'the same', but to use both Geomancy and Conjury as the base of similar jobs, both healers, would be redundant.

Which is why Geomancer would suit a Caster DPS much better, as they can differentiate it from Conjurer.

Again, you're making a subjective argument. I wouldn't call it any more similar than any other mage job myself. You're using your personal feelings as evidence for what should happen, and then balking at the same thing being done by someone else. If you're allowed to say they're too similar then I'm allowed to say they aren't. If you want to try and turn it into something objective then feel free, but if so then I'll go back to pointing out similarities to other jobs and quickly it'll turn into a subjective argument again. At the end of the day there isn't any objective reason that Geomancer would play the same as White Mage, that it would hit the same themes as White Mage, or any number of similar arguments. Subjectively you may feel it's the same, but ultimately you need to acknowledge that as simply personal feeling, no more or less valid than anyone else on the matter.

[Seraphor]

Again, you're making a subjective argument. I wouldn't call it any more similar than any other mage job myself. You're using your personal feelings as evidence for what should happen, and then balking at the same thing being done by someone else. If you're allowed to say they're too similar then I'm allowed to say they aren't. If you want to try and turn it into something objective then feel free, but if so then I'll go back to pointing out similarities to other jobs and quickly it'll turn into a subjective argument again. At the end of the day there isn't any objective reason that Geomancer would play the same as White Mage, that it would hit the same themes as White Mage, or any number of similar arguments. Subjectively you may feel it's the same, but ultimately you need to acknowledge that as simply personal feeling, no more or less valid than anyone else on the matter.

But it's not strictly 'subjective'.
It may not be black and white, or binary, there are degrees of similarity with which to work with and judge against each other.
And if their process of choosing jobs allows for that degree of similarity, then that's fine.
But everything we know of their dev process shows that they avoid jobs being too similar to each other, that they try to give each job a unique weapon, unique lore, etc. THAT part is subjective. Yes they are similar, not so subjective. That this similarity is a problem, that could be subjective.

Yes, there's no reason why WHM and GEO would play the same, they could have totally different job mechanics, but going by the establish Geomancer lore that they've put in the game so far, they would still end up using Earth, Wind and Water spells, which as far as job fantasy goes, is very similar to Conjury.

We are making a judgement by saying that similarity is too close for them to consider making it a healer, based on what we understand of Yoshi's team and their work.
We could be wrong, but I don't believe so. It's an opinion.

[GucciSan]

2. The real critical flaw with your argument is that you're ultimately making a subjective argument here. You see Conjurer and Geomancer as the same thing. I don't. WoW has Druid and Shaman for instance. To you those are the same thing. To Blizzard they're different. To others a myriad of different answers. FF has a number of jobs that some would say is the same as another, but others might say they're different. How you feel does not mean it's absolute. To me they do not represent the same "job fantasy" (which is a pointless distinction to me).

It may not be important to you, but it’s clearly important to SE, who by their consistent Job additions have attempted to make each Job within their respective roles feel aesthetically different from one another. It’s for this same reason you don’t have two Jobs sharing a common theme in the same role:

You have a:
Holy Tank
Berserker Tank
Darkness Tank
Squall

Nuke Mage
Plague/Pet Mage
Hybrid Battlemage

Nature/Holy Healer
Pet Healer
Space/Time Healer

etc.


Adding GEO to the healer slot would then tick two boxes for nature themed healer in the same role. Even if WHM doesn’t have that element anymore, their connection with nature is still a huge part of their identity only ending at level 70+. For the sake of variety, another nature themed healer is something they would probably want to avoid doing again; especially after 6 years of no new healer at all. For as many people that would be no doubt excited to play GEO, there would be just as many, if not more that would be extremely disappointed about getting a Healer that’s very similar to one we’ve already had theme wise at one point.

I guess the one question I'm genuinely curious about is what to you makes GEO stand apart from WHM? What does GEO thematically or aesthetically offer that WHM doesn't already at one point?

[BasicBlake]

Again, you're making a subjective argument. I wouldn't call it any more similar than any other mage job myself. You're using your personal feelings as evidence for what should happen, and then balking at the same thing being done by someone else. If you're allowed to say they're too similar then I'm allowed to say they aren't. If you want to try and turn it into something objective then feel free, but if so then I'll go back to pointing out similarities to other jobs and quickly it'll turn into a subjective argument again. At the end of the day there isn't any objective reason that Geomancer would play the same as White Mage, that it would hit the same themes as White Mage, or any number of similar arguments. Subjectively you may feel it's the same, but ultimately you need to acknowledge that as simply personal feeling, no more or less valid than anyone else on the matter.

You are correct when you tell people we don't know exactly how the class will play, but I am beginning to believe you have never actually done Swallow's Compass or Heaven on High, or the Astrologian quests. They have been adding Geomancer story and hints into the game for 4 years now (speaking like this is a 6.0 point of view). So unless they completely turned the Geomancer lore in the game on it's head, to put it into a role that is really already occupied, I don't see that happening. They have an established timeline of the class going from the Tengu to Ganen, you know the master swordsman and sorcerer who conquered the other tribes in Yanxia to unite them all and become king. He wasn't exactly known for his healing abilities that conquered Yanxia, hell to even the kami Seiryu. Who went from performing Geomatic miracles on his island in Ruby Sea to rising to be the diety of Geomancers on the main land, not exactly known for his healing capabilities. I guess you could imply that when Hien's father dispatched the groups of shinobi and geomancers to the moon gates during the garlean invasion where they brought the ships down using wind magic, that we could be mistaking that story for them healing the ships down.

Back in 1.0 they already had it planned as the dps counterpart for white mage, it's not really a stretch to think they would continue you that thinking. Especially with the overhaul of ARR, and the starter classes eventually going to be deleted as well.

No one is arguing that white mage and geo would play the same, but they fit a similar fantasy in this game that would be lazy to have them in the same role. That's why no one has issues with the talk of Xaela Shaman with their healing touch in the story/lore, because it doesn't infringe on the fantasy of the class. The only way to really keep Geomancer in the game with a strong enough identity would to make it a caster. Which you'll come back with something about subjective, assuming, etc, but I mean... I can buy you the lore book or run you though Swallow's Compass or the Seiryu fight if you really would like to take a look at some things.

I feel like yo are arguing just to argue, you keep bringing up Ast npcs in Coerthas needing to be changed because they had no cast animations, class identity, were in zero dungeons, no quests, no story, no interaction and comparing them to something that we have been getting info for since 4.0. You also keep bringing up the release date of red mage when all I said was that I don't need you to mansplain what a red mage is to me when I have been playing as one since 2006. I know what the class is, I promise I got it, the theme around the class hasn't changed ever since the release of it as a class in ANY game.

[SeikishiYuuki]

Objective facts-
Geomancer uses Wind, Water and Earth magic as well as having an affinity towards barriers and purifying evil.

White Mage uses Wind, Water and Earth magic an has an affinity towards light and divine magic.

These are distinctly similar thematically.

More facts- Geomancer has regularly been mentioned as recently as a few weeks ago in lore, flavor text and job quests and isn't some idle speculation.

There are many pieces of evidence that lend to the idea of Geomancer not being a healer and while there are some arguments for why it could they're fairly outweighed by the DPS side of the scale. So if you were to have the option of placing in a job to fill a similar thematic role to an existing job or giving them a unique position in another role for which they're already coded, which would you chose?

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

1. It is subjective because degrees of similarity is based off of ones perception of how similar they are to another.

2. Geomancer has plenty of unique weapon, lore, and so on to work with.

3. Using two elements (Conjury doesn't even have a viable Water spell) that White Mages have since dumped does not make it the same job. Whether it is too similar is, again, subjective.

4. And I am making a judgment that they are not that close, and ultimately these are both subjective arguments. You even said as such at the end with "it's an opinion".

Snip.

1. White Mage has since dropped "nature" as an option.

2. Even if one wants to argue that White Mage still has it, one can very easily handle it by saying Geomancers are "Eastern" Nature Healers. Coupled with White Mage all but abandoning the Nature part it's more than different enough.

3. I wouldn't label them both as "Nature" mages though either. Hence the Druid and Shaman comparison.

4. Trying to speculate on how many people would be excited or disappointed about an unknown job based off of subjective similarity to another job is pointless. You could just as easily say Casters would be disappointed to get Geomancer and thus they won't even do the job at all because it was similar to White Mage. At the end of the day you're dealing with such a small, small, small part of what a job looks like (what elements it uses) and then attempting to write whole cloth what that must mean.

5. If Geomancer can't stand apart from White Mage then it shouldn't be a job. That you think a different role somehow means it stands apart or doesn't is the issue. I don't think any current job is the same as another, the role does not somehow dictate who is and is not similar.

Snip.

1. I think you completely misunderstand my point when what I'm saying is they could very well just make something new, call it Geomancer, and the existing lore is just another branch or whatever.

2. I would not, remotely, use 1.0 as a basis for anything. Unless you're still waiting for Musketeer and Shepard it's kind of a moot argument at this point. The game has changed vastly since then.

3. To you they fit a similar fantasy. To me they do not. The fantasy of a job is not dependent on the role it's in.

4. I've done those fights, have the book, so on and so forth. And none of that is a rebuttal to subjectivity. At all. If you want to argue that Geomancer needs to be a Caster or else it's the same as White Mage (or however "too similar" is to you) then you would need to be able to objectively argue that on some absolute value. As what you are talking about is, ultimately, not a fact but an opinion, you have no argument.

5. What I proposed is the same as Ishgardian Astrologians to Sharlayan with X Geomancers to Y Geomancers.

6. If you understand that Red Mages have been a lot of things but still keep the same theme then you can understand how Geomancers can be healers and keep the same theme here.

Snip.

I mean, again, I don't see them as filling the same thematic role because they share elements. You're making an argument that only exists because you have an explicit stance that I don't agree with. If Geomancers are so similar to White Mages that the only thing that can possibly separate them is a different role then something has failed critically. I don't see Paladins as the same thing as White Mages separated by role, but they're both "holy" themed, so by the logic shared here then they must be the same. Or, maybe what makes a job different from another one is a bit deeper than simply the elements it uses and the role it occupies.

I will also add as a side note that we know the lore team takes backseat to the main developing team. If the main developing team wants Geomancers as healers all the lore in the world means nothing really. The lore team builds around what the others do. Citing lore as an argument when it could be brushed away as easily as spider web isn't a great argument. I don't think the lore somehow means Geomancers are the same as Conjurers but even if it absolutely meant they were then it would be kind of moot in the long run.

[CatsWithShoes]

I imagined a system of popping down crystals related to different biomes and spells having different effects depending an whether a target or the caster was standing in them? heal more, do a shield, buff dmg? maybe different effects for enemies and party members.. i think they were really hoping to make a healer that felt like it played differently than what we have already.