Geomancer

[BasicBlake]

Personally I'd be down to see such reforms as:

• WHM being reworked into largely a GCD-based direct healer through the Cure line, like having their HoT effects reworked into buffs to healing received
• SCH reworked into a stance healer, with Selene reworked to focus on counterattack damage and Emergency Tactics reworked into a toggle, so that you're compelled to change "formation" with the situation; could also use some button consolidation
• AST losing Sects and becoming the dedicated HoT healer (calling to Time Mage's use of effects like Regen), with an emphasis on effects that stagger and slow down incoming damage to make the HoTs manage it; this could also pair well with the cards system, giving you windows to focus on spreading buffs while HoTs tick away
• A new Battle Healer-type job focused on fueling healing resources via damage output (like a Drain/Osmose effect); a high uptime attacker but only bursts of potency

... But I'm also weird and think there should be a push towards emphasizing GCD and single-target heals. And that Synastry could be displaced from AST onto maybe WHM or a new job (a Drain-based healer with Synastry could be wild).

At the very least I don't think GEO poses opportunities for a truly unique healing model, while it would have a lot of leeway as a DPS. Perhaps as a stance-based caster, or a displacement of DoTs from SMN so they can focus on their pets.

The removal of Ast sects just to give the gimmick to Sch is kind of along the lines we have been arguing with M*rron about, how it would feel kinda cheap to take from the one healing class and put it on another. But I do feel like a new "battle healer" is coming, but I know you want Necromancer where I want whatever Bajsaljen ends up being called outside of "battle medic".

Changing to a GCD healing system would require a lot, and I mean a lot a lot of overhaul of the battle system, which hell, it's not like we're getting much content these days anyway. I'm just pointing out they really would have to change encounter design from the ground up. How damage goes out, potencies adjusted, enrages timers changes, dps would also have to be tweaked to accommodate.

Which every mock up I see of Geomancer people have come up with some very cool ideas from positionals to cycling elements to end in the large ancient magic finishers, to juggling/balancing elemental gauges for attunement. So I can only imagine what the pros are coming up with at SE.

[Archwizard]

snip

Fair with regards to SCH/AST, I'm just noting that it would be fitting for SCH since the building blocks are already in place. Selene doesn't do anything that couldn't be handled with Egi Glamour, and SCH's healing falls behind the others – healing through Living Dead is near impossible for them – in no small part because of the limits of their shield-focused heals. As Seiki said, NoctSect is on its last legs for AST regardless; it's not simply about taking one away to give to another job, it's about killing two birds with one stone, trimming excess from AST and refocusing SCH using a similar principle. (Though I wouldn't completely compare the idea to Sects, since what I had in mind would include allowing you to toggle Shielding vs Direct Healing in-combat based on your immediate needs while still emphasizing SCH's unique barrier spells, instead of creating a Flex Healer like AST.)
As for Necromancer... I'm not dogmatically attached to it, and I would be happy with any healer that offers unique mechanics. A dark-oriented healer just happens to fit the slot perfectly and "necromancer" has a strong theme to build around. I wouldn't be so against suggestions like Chemist if anyone could convince me it could be unique outside of "throws potions".

I agree that a push to GCD heals would require changing a lot, but at the same time, most of the healing community agrees that a lot needs to change anyway; too many tools for too situational use.

But I digress.

With only three full casters, there's loads of untapped potential for rotations, so GEO gets a lot of leeway. Plus the only other full job with water attacks is NIN, weirdly enough.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

Just gonna jump in here to back up the "Geomancer as Caster"-side of the argument. While they certainly could find a way to make Healer-GEO work, the jobs history makes it seem to me like it'd fit better into a DPS role. It's never been much of a healer before and the vast majority of iterations were more DPS/Debuffers, and I'd rather they stick with that than try to re-invent the wheel when its unnecessary.
There's also Jobs like FFTA's Elementalist which are basically offshoots of the GEO concept (and fill the same DPS/Debuffing role) that would function well to fill in any skill gaps that a purely GEO-inspired skillset would leave.
(Btw, can we all stop forgetting that classic GEO technically had access to all elements through different Terrain/Weather and would thus be a prime candidate for a true elemental caster? Sure, FFXIV's version points out Earth/Wind/Water specifically, but seeing as Ishgardian Astrologians are very different from the AST we got I dont see that as an issue :P)

---

Technically off topic but:

Changing to a GCD healing system would require a lot, and I mean a lot a lot of overhaul of the battle system, which hell, it's not like we're getting much content these days anyway. I'm just pointing out they really would have to change encounter design from the ground up. How damage goes out, potencies adjusted, enrages timers changes, dps would also have to be tweaked to accommodate.

Forgive my bluntness, but this is nonsense. Right now most encounters in the game have healing requirements that are so low that they can be met through OGCDs alone while full time DPSing, which is a big part of why healing is so boring atm. And even the encounters with harder requirements tend to have a lot of healing downtime, spending a few more GCDs on actual healing would at best provide more variety rather then cause any mechanical problems.
We're playing a game where Damage (especially partywide damage) is mostly coming in predictable spikes, and due to that fact all that would really need to be done to shift to a more GCD-focused healing design is reduce the overall number of oGCDs. OGCDs don't need to go away ofc, they just need to be more a limited resource rather then the main focus of the healing kits as they are now.
There is nothing that needs to change about encounter design, healing predictable damage per GCDs instead of using an oGCD while full time DPSing wouldn't change much, if anything, really.
Healer-DPS doesn't need to be adjusted past making up whatever is lost through adjusting whatever skills are already there or adding back skills previously removed or (obviously) new skills, possibly of a similar fashion as WHMs Afflatus Misery (i.e. skills that reimburse the caster for using GCDs on healing).

What gets often lost in these healing conversations is that prior to SB healing was a mostly GCD-focused endeavor, and even in Stormblood healing was a lot more balanced between GCDs and oGCDs, and the game functioned perfectly fine. Shadowbringers really didn't change enough (if anything) about encounter design to warrant as many oGCDs either, so I don't see how a shift back to a slightly more GCD-focused system would cause issues.
It's also important to note that SE seems perfectly willing to change whatever few encounter would "break" due to role changes (which would likely only affect Ultimates anyway), given that that's exactly what they did at the start of ShB to account for the Tank changes.

[Archwizard]

(Btw, can we all stop forgetting that classic GEO technically had access to all elements through different Terrain/Weather and would thus be a prime candidate for a true elemental caster? Sure, FFXIV's version points out Earth/Wind/Water specifically, but seeing as Ishgardian Astrologians are very different from the AST we got I dont see that as an issue :P)

I don't think anybody was saying other elements are completely off the table – with the chambers of Swallow's Compass ending in "Heart of the Dragon" with a fire-throwing tengu inside, I could see a rotation built around cycling between Earth, Wind and Water to end with a massive Fire finisher (perhaps magma-based to maintain distinction from the fire spells flung by other casters), much as BLM and RDM build up to non-elemental finishers. Plus it could tie in well with the classical elements, even though Feng Shui uses the five Chinese elements (excluding wind, and including wood which has the same place, and metal).

If you mean all six though, I should point out none of the dedicated casters practice more than four elements – largely because more than three isn't really necessary for all practical purposes (hence why SMN has only 3 Egis despite six pure-elemental primals), and RDM's dual model essentially gives it clones of really only three spells. So while Ice and Lightning aren't off the table, they wouldn't entirely be unnecessary.

[BasicBlake]

I don't think anybody was saying other elements are completely off the table – with the chambers of Swallow's Compass ending in "Heart of the Dragon" with a fire-throwing tengu inside, I could see a rotation built around cycling between Earth, Wind and Water to end with a massive Fire finisher (perhaps magma-based to maintain distinction from the fire spells flung by other casters), much as BLM and RDM build up to non-elemental finishers. Plus it could tie in well with the classical elements, even though Feng Shui uses the five Chinese elements (excluding wind, and including wood which has the same place, and metal).

If you mean all six though, I should point out none of the dedicated casters practice more than four elements – largely because more than three isn't really necessary for all practical purposes (hence why SMN has only 3 Egis despite six pure-elemental primals), and RDM's dual model essentially gives it clones of really only three spells. So while Ice and Lightning aren't off the table, they wouldn't entirely be unnecessary.

I assumed Heart of the Dragon was merely because Swallow’s Compass is at the heart of the dragon named mountain range running throughout Yanxia. And while you follow the path of the dungeon you cross the water of the One River to the Fanged Crescent with is also know as the Dragon’s Head.

But I do agree that some elements but not all sounds plausible, because of the break between Geomancer and Ony. But both those schools of magic seem to blend and separate depending on where you look in the game. I feel like the only npc we have using only three elements, plus the Swallow’s Compass being the original Geomancer school they probably want to focus on their elements.

Granted they could always come out of left field and give them all elements with the blending of the two schools completely. I feel like fitting 6 elements into a hot bar sounds like a nightmare. And with how streamlined and smooth the new classes have felt I’m sure they could figure something out. But it does sound like a lot.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

I don't think anybody was saying other elements are completely off the table – with the chambers of Swallow's Compass ending in "Heart of the Dragon" with a fire-throwing tengu inside, I could see a rotation built around cycling between Earth, Wind and Water to end with a massive Fire finisher (perhaps magma-based to maintain distinction from the fire spells flung by other casters), much as BLM and RDM build up to non-elemental finishers. Plus it could tie in well with the classical elements, even though Feng Shui uses the five Chinese elements (excluding wind, and including wood which has the same place, and metal).

If you mean all six though, I should point out none of the dedicated casters practice more than four elements – largely because more than three isn't really necessary for all practical purposes (hence why SMN has only 3 Egis despite six pure-elemental primals), and RDM's dual model essentially gives it clones of really only three spells. So while Ice and Lightning aren't off the table, they wouldn't entirely be unnecessary.

Well, there is so much discussion going on about GEO being oh-so-similar to Conjurer that it seems to me that people are forgetting that the other elements were part of the classic skillset as well. So I thought I'd put it back on the table.
Real-Life Feng Shui doesn't need to have much bearing on how GEO would be designed here, seeing as in-game it seems all but accepted anywhere that there are six elements; and other games' iterations of the job also mainly focus on the whole terrain/weather-gimmick which had nothing to do with Real-Life Feng-Shui either.
I also feel it's important to point out that AST for instance, while being based on RL-Astrology, takes plenty of liberties with the concept, so GEO can take as many liberties with Feng-Shui as it needs.
In many ways, I find this games elemental cycle(s) already reminicent of the Feng-Shui elements, but maybe thats just me.

Mechanically there are many ways to include all elements, they could for instance create a dual-rotation - one on the GCD, one on the oGCD - based on the two elemental cycles we've learned about.

Ultimately though I think a full elemental caster is a concept that they haven't explored before (other than Y'shtolas Sorceress), and might be an interesting concept for them to take given GEO's history.
And I think they should look at the entire History of the job should they ever choose to create it, not just the bits and pieces of lore they created when they still tried to shoehorn GEO into AST.
Ignoring an otherwise interesting concept because 'practicality' also seems like a waste, considering the elements are purely visual in this game anyway.

[BasicBlake]

And I think they should look at the entire History of the job should they ever choose to create it, not just the bits and pieces of lore they created when they still tried to shoehorn GEO into AST.

Well there is history of a class and then there is a history they have established for a class in game.

The debate of the Ast quests will also always be here I feel like, because it is so split down the middle on how people interpreted those quest chains. Wasn't all that was said was Levava saying how they were similar due to drawing power from a star/stars and that their casting complemented eachother? Also that they could learn a lot about their own schools of magic from studying the other. I know that Swallow's Compass was released in 4.3 a year after the Stormblood launch with the Ast class quests and nothing about that dungeon was very astro-y, granted this is also just opinion.

I know at the time there was a big debate of people saying that this was SE shifting Ast to a more Geomancer centered style of play, but Ast have never received or even had anything Geomancer related in their kit.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

Well there is history of a class and then there is a history they have established for a class in game.

And they obviously should use the history they already created, I just don't think they should limit themselves to it.
I'd simply prefer for them to come up with a unique concept, both for gameplay and visually, and adjust the lore as necessary. They can do so and have done so before.
For example, while the lore we've got up until now says GEO usually uses Water/Earth/Wind, that might be simply because these elements tend to be the most accessible, but a skilled GEO in the right environment can draw on any element of their choosing. Its just not common knowledge due to the relative rarity of volcanic/frozen/thunderous environments. Fits well enough with GEOs classic theme of using the Environment and explains why we've never seen a GEO use Ice/Fire/Thunder before while leaving the door open for them to be part of the skillset.

The debate of the Ast quests will also always be here I feel like, because it is so split down the middle on how people interpreted those quest chains. Wasn't all that was said was Levava saying how they were similar due to drawing power from a star/stars and that their casting complemented eachother? Also that they could learn a lot about their own schools of magic from studying the other. I know that Swallow's Compass was released in 4.3 a year after the Stormblood launch with the Ast class quests and nothing about that dungeon was very astro-y, granted this is also just opinion.

Never said AST and GEO were the same thing, lorewise they were always presented as seperate entities. It just always seemed to me like SE originally planned to roll some concepts from GEO into AST rather then make GEO a standalone job, what with Leveva musing about fusing the schools and all.
At least that's always been my theory; though it seems they've abandoned that idea - probably due to player feedback or popular demand for standalone GEO or shift in Healer and/or overall job design or any combination of reasons.

I know at the time there was a big debate of people saying that this was SE shifting Ast to a more Geomancer centered style of play, but Ast have never received or even had anything Geomancer related in their kit.

Earthly Star says hi - kind of. Ground targeted effects as an engine for GEOs Terrain-command were a popular suggestion back then (and still are to an extend).
It's not much of a stretch to believe Earthly Star to be early experimentation for that concept.

[SeikishiYuuki]

And they obviously should use the history they already created, I just don't think they should limit themselves to it.
I'd simply prefer for them to come up with a unique concept, both for gameplay and visually, and adjust the lore as necessary. They can do so and have done so before.
For example, while the lore we've got up until now says GEO usually uses Water/Earth/Wind, that might be simply because these elements tend to be the most accessible, but a skilled GEO in the right environment can draw on any element of their choosing. Its just not common knowledge due to the relative rarity of volcanic/frozen/thunderous environments. Fits well enough with GEOs classic theme of using the Environment and explains why we've never seen a GEO use Ice/Fire/Thunder before while leaving the door open for them to be part of the skillset.



Never said AST and GEO were the same thing, lorewise they were always presented as seperate entities. It just always seemed to me like SE originally planned to roll some concepts from GEO into AST rather then make GEO a standalone job, what with Leveva musing about fusing the schools and all.
At least that's always been my theory; though it seems they've abandoned that idea - probably due to player feedback or popular demand for standalone GEO or shift in Healer and/or overall job design or any combination of reasons.



Earthly Star says hi - kind of. Ground targeted effects as an engine for GEOs Terrain-command were a popular suggestion back then (and still are to an extend).
It's not much of a stretch to believe Earthly Star to be early experimentation for that concept.

The only real counter I have to the use of multiple elements is Yoshi P. saying they can't do a Geomancer that actively utilizes the terrain/weather and the class would have to rely on more stable component. (this is not say them using other elements is outside the realm of possibility just specifically terrain weather based ones are unlikely) As to Earthly Star I would not be surprised if this was actually true or not far off. There were dozens of 1.0/2.0 unused abilities that got rehashed and rebuild like ACN's original "Distaff" abilities and its entirely possible it came from there.

I don't think they meant to incorporate Geo into Ast, I mean they might have but it seems more likely the plans they've had to add seem to always go awry and they honestly might just be giving Geo a lore presence because they couldn't find a good playable execution for it within the game at the time.

[BasicBlake]

character limit

I think they only use those three elements because at some point they were trying very hard to set Onymuji and Geomancer apart (I assume to parallel CNJ and THM). But at this point the line that separates the two seems to fluctuate. They could just have the two cannibalize eachother and just be one straight up eastern entity though and give it to the playerbase. My personal hope is that whatever the playstyle ends up being, I really hope through the use of certain spells/oGCDs they end up able to place fields at their feet that end up having different effects. This way we would still get the feel of terrain manipulation but don't have to place targeted aoe's. (since they seem to not want dps to use those, thank god). And from what they have shown us of the class so far, they aren’t interested in the “all elements” theme. They seem pretty honed in on the name of the class and went full on Feng Shui.

As for the Geo and Ast thing I was commenting on how you said SE was shoehorning Geo into Ast, which I didn't really see. But I do think they probably saw player feedback and really tried to separate the two!

Earthly Star is by no means the first targeted ground ability in the game. I think the tooltip is even something to the effect of you are placing a celestial body on the ground. So while I agree that terrain has played a big role in Geo as a whole, I don't think the placing of Earthly Star was a branch out experiment into the class. Not when we have Asylum, Sacred Soil, HAD Shadowflare and I think Drk gets one as well. Ast just needed a placed aoe healer circle to match the other two healers.