Geomancer

[BasicBlake]

1. Okay? And I would consider it valid. A job should be able to stand on its own two legs, regardless of role.

2. Stone/Wind are effectively removed from White Mage at the highest level. That may be more than enough to not overlap.

3. Or like adding Scholar? Which is the same basic job as Sage just less efficient?

4. Mystic Knight could be a Caster, I still wouldn't call it the same thing as Red Mage. Rune Fencer and Red Mage could both tank in XI and they weren't the same job after all.

5. I can actually point to specific healing moves from Geomancer. Can you point to any spell casting moves from Mystic Knight? If you can't then it isn't equivalent.

6. The argument with Monk/Samurai/Ninja isn't one I made, it's one your side made. It's supposed to be a reference to how the developers treat "job fantasies". If it is then it clearly doesn't work the way you're all implying. And if it's not then it's an entirely pointless addition to the discussion. And currently White Mage and Geomancer have zero abilities that are the same but with a different name.

7. As far as Samurai as a tank goes from what I recall it was less "it couldn't be a tank" and more "Yoshida didn't want it to be one", which is a very important distinction.

A class having a heal doesn’t make it a healer though. It has never been a “healer”. Mog’s dance isn’t enough to base a healing class around.

You can give Tifa nothing but Cure materia and we still wouldn’t have reason to make monk a healer.

Could Mystic Knight be a caster? It’s possible. I know your whole thing is about subjectivity and “anything can be anything”. But they won’t add Mystic Knight as a blade enchanting caster role in this game. Red Mage was a terrible tank in XI. Could Rune Fencer stand in the back line with the mages and effectively cast on the boss?

He didn’t want Samurai to be a tank, I wonder why.

[BasicBlake]

Actually Mirron please don’t respond to what I wrote, we aren’t getting anywhere.

[MirronTulaxia]

A class having a heal doesn’t make it a healer though. It has never been a “healer”. Mog’s dance isn’t enough to base a healing class around.

You can give Tifa nothing but Cure materia and we still wouldn’t have reason to make monk a healer.

Could Mystic Knight be a caster? It’s possible. I know your whole thing is about subjectivity and “anything can be anything”. But they won’t add Mystic Knight as a blade enchanting caster role in this game. Red Mage was a terrible tank in XI. Could Rune Fencer stand in the back line with the mages and effectively cast on the boss?

He didn’t want Samurai to be a tank, I wonder why.

1. No job has been a healer outside of White Mage though. Scholar certainly wasn't known for being one. You've suggested Time Mage as a healer, and the only heal it has to its name is Regen. You're just being hypocritical.

2. I mean, outside of Limits I wouldn't consider any job to be something. Though you raise a funny point in that Aerith certainly feels very much like a Geomancer, talking to the planet and such (was even her discussed job class).

3. You miss the point still. Rune Fencer being a Caster would still not be the same thing as a Red Mage. The "job fantasy" is different. You keep reducing jobs to extremely broad generalizations. And in terms of roles when it comes to DPS I don't really think anything should be anything. It's why I made the point about Dancer.

4. Given it was likely intended as a tank in FFXI, it's got precedence. Certainly not like Squall was tank like.

[Archwizard]

Again, if Geomancer is so similar to White Mage that they can't function in the same role then it shouldn't be added.

Based on the context of GucciSan's post, your response reads as though you're saying "If Geomancer is too (aesthetically or mechanically) similar to WHM, a healer, then it shouldn't be added to the game period, even as a DPS."

Which... has no other way to be read, but I can't wait for you to tell me I'm misinterpreting you after this.

Frankly, I find that entirely unreasonable of a conclusion, especially when you're simultaneously arguing that otherwise, there would be no reason not to add it as a healer. But you're totally not advocating for it as a healer. In fact you're not advocating for anything at all!

Lemme give some examples for why this premise is wrong:

• Red Mage and Scholar have each been classical mixes of Black Mage and White Mage, with Scholar leaning heavily on magic and Red Mage balancing it with melee. As a result, Red Mage's brand of magic shares aesthetic similarities with each of the other jobs listed, but is mechanically separated enough to fit in its own niche as a caster DPS.
• Samurai and Ninja both are melee DPS jobs with heavy Eastern themes, but mechanically and lore-wise have significant enough differences to justify separate positions within the roster.
• At a stretch, one could also argue that Dark Knight's form of magic appears to have the same properties as Scholar's attack spells, being focused on dark energy, decay, and the disruption of biological processes. Similarly you could argue that Bard and Dancer both utilize entertainment to channel buff effects, and Gunbreaker and Machinist both utilize ballistic weapons, with Machinist even giving up reload mechanics to Gunbreaker.
• Oh, and of course, Scholar and Summoner each explicitly utilize the same properties for their respective familiars/Egis and share similar mechanics, but are separated by role, exactly like what we've been saying with regards to parallels between GEO and WHM.

As well I feel like you don't realize

Based on your overuse of this phrase whenever you post and your contrarian attitude throughout this thread, you appear to have either a very high opinion of yourself, a very low opinion of everyone else, or both.

Perhaps if everyone else is "missing the point" of the things you say, maybe consider the common factor is... you?

[BasicBlake]

snip

It's not worth it, he has stated numerous times that he "doesn't care the role that it is" he's just here to argue whatever statement you say. He's here to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.

No matter who tries to explain what people mean by class fantasy and mechanics he will just say "I don't see it that way so it doesn't exist". They could add the 4th caster who's main mechanic revolved around carbuncle and he'd say that's fine because summoner have the other egis.

ANYWAY. I'm more interested in talking about Geomancer, not arguing with Mirron about semantics and definitions and his perceptions of older FF games.

Has anyone found out why Kyo only focuses on wind and water? His school for Geomancy is now functional and he is teaching them in the art of "Wind and Water" only. I guess it could come down to mainland Geomancy vs Hingashi but it seems odd for a class so focused on only three elements as is, to have an npc open a school only focusing on two of them.

I have been looking all over but I can't actually find anything but it's really irritating me that we have no explanation (yet).

[Archwizard]

Has anyone found out why Kyo only focuses on wind and water? His school for Geomancy is now functional and he is teaching them in the art of "Wind and Water" only. I guess it could come down to mainland Geomancy vs Hingashi but it seems odd for a class so focused on only three elements as is, to have an npc open a school only focusing on two of them.

I have been looking all over but I can't actually find anything but it's really irritating me that we have no explanation (yet).

Because Geomancer's Japanese name is Feng Shui Soldier, and Feng Shui literally translates to "wind-water".

I haven't heard anything about him only teaching the arts of Wind and Water though, just that "of Wind and Water" is his title.

[BasicBlake]

Because Geomancer's Japanese name is Feng Shui Soldier, and Feng Shui literally translates to "wind-water".

So the Stone part of the barrier of Kugane, them being masters of wind, water and stone in the lore book, the stone portion of Swallow's Compass was just a red herring?

I just found it weird that something that is said to focus so much on the three elements has an npc focusing on two.

[Archwizard]

So the Stone part of the barrier of Kugane, them being masters of wind, water and stone in the lore book, the stone portion of Swallow's Compass was just a red herring?

I just found it weird that something that is said to focus so much on the three elements has an npc focusing on two.

Sure, but I haven't seen anything suggesting that he wouldn't teach them Earth magic as well? He seems to utilize all three elements himself, and I just figured his English title was a result of direct (albeit flowery) translation.

[BasicBlake]

Sure, but I haven't seen anything suggesting that he wouldn't teach them Earth magic as well? He seems to utilize all three elements himself, and I just figured his English title was a result of direct (albeit flowery) translation.

I had just watched the Astro 80 quest last night where he says the line "something something I am teaching them the ways of wind and water" which is probably just translation side. He's probably Kyo of Feng Shui and teaching them Feng Shui at the school.

I rewatched Foxfire to make sure he actually uses Qi of Earth I was second guessing myself. xD Also while watching we see he uses two different elemental spells Qi of Wind and Qi or Earth, has a heal Qi of Water and what looks to be an instant cast after some Winds that he casts? I could have been seeing things because youtube is only so great a resource when it's a job quest and they are focused on fighting and you're trying to watch what the guy with the pink boots is doing.

[AnotherPerson]

Side Note: I know 0 Astro who want old cards back, I'll admit sometimes the current card set is less interesting but it is substantially better mechanically.

You might want to check the "A summary of healer issues thread, some posts around the Has anyone quit healing thread, or just scroll around in the healer forums to the other pages. It's strewn all over the place, and the first post in the "summary of healer issues" has the AST card variety mentioned. Yeah, it's better mechanically currently, but it says a lot when the card system is substantially better in terms of efficiency / usage than before, but less people play it than before and more people turn away from the job itself.

It's also partly why healers as a whole started quitting in droves as a healer - gameplay became too bland.