Geomancer

[Archwizard]

-snip-

I said they're arbitrary in 14, and I explicitly mentioned BLM as one of the exceptions. In previous entries the distinction of elements allowed you to exploit elemental weaknesses in the opponent, which do not exist in 14 (since ARR anyway); BLM had to be rewritten such that the elements themselves had a practical distinction via the AF/UI Phases, because it is a damage job and control of those elements is intrinsic to its identity.
However, healers generally don't complicate their rotations with such considerations; they get a DoT, an AoE, and a filler attack. Judging by spells like Combust and Art of War, filling the gap seems more important than the aesthetic.

If I must identify it, I would say it's a Hasty Generalization (or possibly Slothful Induction? It's a bit hazy between the two) to say that "They removed X from Y, therefore they plan to add X to Z." Similarly, taking an event and ascribing a purpose without evidence is the definition of a Causal Fallacy, not to mention an attempt at mind-reading.
The argument that I must be using logical fallacies as a stand-in because you did not recognize said statement as one ("I don't see it, so it must not be true") would also be an example of Personal Incredulity Fallacy, since you asked.

I'm not trying to say they "don't want anyone to have wind/earth/water magic" -- and indeed, SMN and RDM have wind and earth, NIN has water, and CNJ hasn't actually lost earth or wind. Generally that is my standard response to arguments like "They took time manipulation away from AST, therefore they're adding Time Mage," and I recognize that you used the same form of reasoning here. The emphasis was to remind these forums in general that no, one doesn't mean the other.
With regards to WHM specifically, you'll note that my statement ended with "or they don't care enough to keep it," because as I said before, elements have no distinction to a healer anyway so there is no practical reason to preserve them.

If I were to argue a "reason" to swap to Holy, then something else worth considering is that the JPN side of the game also uses the suffixed naming convention of spells from newer games, "-ra" and "-ga". There's already no consistent suffix for the fourth spell in a series ("-za" and "-ja" have both been used), and adding a fifth rank of a spell (to a healer, no less, when even BLM caps out at 4) is unheard of since that convention was introduced.
Not to mention it would be visually boring to mindlessly throw rocks for the fourth expansion in a row and an underwhelming use of "Quake".
But again, that would be an exercise in mind-reading and ascribing a cause to an event.

(Oh, and telling others to provide an alternative reason to disprove you edges on Burden of Proof, while we're at it.)

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

1. Sure, any number of jobs could be a healer. I feel like it's more sensible for the change if it's specifically a healer, but I'm not going to say absolutely it has to be. In terms of what is "sensible" or not I feel like people place a bit too much focus on how sensible it is when most of the time jobs are just DPS. Those examples, outside of Chemist (I'm not sure what Shaman is, there are a couple things I can think of it being but in one case it's definitely not a healer and in the other case it's not called Shaman) are still mostly DPS or Support after all, that's how jobs outside of MMOs work.

Snip.

1. Whether it feels lazy or not is really a matter of how they implement it to me. My ideas for Geomancer, for instance, would involve static AoE terrain where you get different spells depending on what terrain you're in that you created. If people call that the same as White Mage that says more about them than it does about the concept.

2. Honestly I think people are focusing really specifically on Aero/Stone when it doesn't have to be those specifically and more the themes they represent.

Snip.

1. I wouldn't say they're arbitrary in XIV, because again, as I said, there is a reason for why White Mage has the elements it has. Specifically to contrast Black Mage. You might not agree with how meaningful it is, but it isn't arbitrary.

2. Having elemental weaknesses in other games doesn't make it any more or less arbitrary in other games really.

3. Combust and Art of War fit the aesthetic of their respective jobs still.

4. You... kind of do have to identify a logical fallacy rather than just throwing out a blanket catch all in an attempt to shut things down. And none of what I said is a hasty generalization. I didn't say "all X is Y based off of one instance" or some such. Slothful Induction is also known as an appeal to coincidence, if anything that would be your stance. Causal Fallacy is specifically if I am claiming the wrong cause for something (and at no point have I claimed absolutely what is happening). I'm not saying X is happening because of Y, but am saying if X is happening because of Y, here is why that would make sense and why that does not. Lastly I'm not incredulous at all, but given the way you're tossing out logical fallacies and the way in which you're using them it certainly seems likely.

5. Using a standard response to an argument that isn't being made isn't exactly a good policy. That you misread what my argument is only shows in how you used that argument.

6. One doesn't mean the other, but again, they don't do things for no reason.

7. Honestly I find your explanation pretty weak given how Holy is used. Holy isn't exactly the most impressive of spells, so Quake or what have you wouldn't be crazy. In terms of suffixes they could just make up one as well.

8. Whether we know the cause or not there is a cause behind any event really.

9. It really doesn't edge on Burden of Proof because at no point have I said you must do it, I simply asked for any theories. If you can't provide any theories then your argument inevitably falls apart to me, but that's a problem for you to solve not something I insist from you.

Unrelated point to this all, can I say how much I hate the limited posts per day bit? I'd like to reply to everyone individually but the limited posts mean I can't really talk much if I do that.

[SeikishiYuuki]

I think is not really sensible to have Geo be a healer given so much evidence points to DPS, not impossible just improbable. The Shamans I'm referring to are the healers of Azim steppe, they're know to employ a number of healer coded abilities like blessing and divination as well as being able to animate their golems. They unfortunately said they can't do a terrain or zone control effect this was actually originally planned, once for ACN "distaff" and I believe again considered for Geo and they determined that won't work for how FFXIV works, not impossible cause things change but improbable.

A lot of jobs get DPS coded unfortunately because a lot of jobs are DPS, and at some point yea you're gonna have to blur the line and make some of them tanks and healers, but Geo has so much Lore in and out of game pointing it away from healer that if it came in as a healer it'd almost be like "what was the point of all that then?"

[BasicBlake]

1. Sure, any number of jobs could be a healer. I feel like it's more sensible for the change if it's specifically a healer, but I'm not going to say absolutely it has to be. In terms of what is "sensible" or not I feel like people place a bit too much focus on how sensible it is when most of the time jobs are just DPS. Those examples, outside of Chemist (I'm not sure what Shaman is, there are a couple things I can think of it being but in one case it's definitely not a healer and in the other case it's not called Shaman) are still mostly DPS or Support after all, that's how jobs outside of MMOs work.



1. Whether it feels lazy or not is really a matter of how they implement it to me. My ideas for Geomancer, for instance, would involve static AoE terrain where you get different spells depending on what terrain you're in that you created. If people call that the same as White Mage that says more about them than it does about the concept.
2. Honestly I think people are focusing really specifically on Aero/Stone when it doesn't have to be those specifically and more the themes they represent.

I think why a few of us are so focused on Aero/Stone/Water is that is the whole basis for Geomancer as a class and a school of magic in FFXIV. They are masters of THOSE three elements. They are showing us time and time again in the lore book and the game that this version of Geomancer is not a terrain manipulating master of all elements, they are Masters of Wind, Water and Earth with a focus on banishing spirits/summoning shiki. You have the Sai Taisui only using those three elements in their casting attacks, the same Sai Taisui can only be created by mud that comes from a spot where leylines of power from water/wind/earth come together, all of Swallow's Compass is a journey through Wind, Water and Earth. You have Seiryu, the deity to the class as a whole, focusing on Water, Wind and Earth along with summoning of shiki.

So while creating of terrain on the ground would be a great mechanic, and I hope they implement it, at the end of the day they will most likely be manipulating and focusing on those three elements.