Geomancer

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

1. It is subjective because degrees of similarity is based off of ones perception of how similar they are to another.

2. Geomancer has plenty of unique weapon, lore, and so on to work with.

3. Using two elements (Conjury doesn't even have a viable Water spell) that White Mages have since dumped does not make it the same job. Whether it is too similar is, again, subjective.

4. And I am making a judgment that they are not that close, and ultimately these are both subjective arguments. You even said as such at the end with "it's an opinion".

Snip.

1. White Mage has since dropped "nature" as an option.

2. Even if one wants to argue that White Mage still has it, one can very easily handle it by saying Geomancers are "Eastern" Nature Healers. Coupled with White Mage all but abandoning the Nature part it's more than different enough.

3. I wouldn't label them both as "Nature" mages though either. Hence the Druid and Shaman comparison.

4. Trying to speculate on how many people would be excited or disappointed about an unknown job based off of subjective similarity to another job is pointless. You could just as easily say Casters would be disappointed to get Geomancer and thus they won't even do the job at all because it was similar to White Mage. At the end of the day you're dealing with such a small, small, small part of what a job looks like (what elements it uses) and then attempting to write whole cloth what that must mean.

5. If Geomancer can't stand apart from White Mage then it shouldn't be a job. That you think a different role somehow means it stands apart or doesn't is the issue. I don't think any current job is the same as another, the role does not somehow dictate who is and is not similar.

Snip.

1. I think you completely misunderstand my point when what I'm saying is they could very well just make something new, call it Geomancer, and the existing lore is just another branch or whatever.

2. I would not, remotely, use 1.0 as a basis for anything. Unless you're still waiting for Musketeer and Shepard it's kind of a moot argument at this point. The game has changed vastly since then.

3. To you they fit a similar fantasy. To me they do not. The fantasy of a job is not dependent on the role it's in.

4. I've done those fights, have the book, so on and so forth. And none of that is a rebuttal to subjectivity. At all. If you want to argue that Geomancer needs to be a Caster or else it's the same as White Mage (or however "too similar" is to you) then you would need to be able to objectively argue that on some absolute value. As what you are talking about is, ultimately, not a fact but an opinion, you have no argument.

5. What I proposed is the same as Ishgardian Astrologians to Sharlayan with X Geomancers to Y Geomancers.

6. If you understand that Red Mages have been a lot of things but still keep the same theme then you can understand how Geomancers can be healers and keep the same theme here.

Snip.

I mean, again, I don't see them as filling the same thematic role because they share elements. You're making an argument that only exists because you have an explicit stance that I don't agree with. If Geomancers are so similar to White Mages that the only thing that can possibly separate them is a different role then something has failed critically. I don't see Paladins as the same thing as White Mages separated by role, but they're both "holy" themed, so by the logic shared here then they must be the same. Or, maybe what makes a job different from another one is a bit deeper than simply the elements it uses and the role it occupies.

I will also add as a side note that we know the lore team takes backseat to the main developing team. If the main developing team wants Geomancers as healers all the lore in the world means nothing really. The lore team builds around what the others do. Citing lore as an argument when it could be brushed away as easily as spider web isn't a great argument. I don't think the lore somehow means Geomancers are the same as Conjurers but even if it absolutely meant they were then it would be kind of moot in the long run.

[GucciSan]

2. Even if one wants to argue that White Mage still has it, one can very easily handle it by saying Geomancers are "Eastern" Nature Healers.

This is it. This is exactly our point. With how SE wrote CNJ lore, and with how they’ve presented GEO up to this point, you can effectively sum up GEO as “Conjurer, but Japanese”. WHM may lose their elemental attacks but based on the animations of their Cure spells, I’d say they’re water-aspected, like I imagine GEO would probably do. Even Divine Benison is water-aspected. There’s too much overlap to justify them as a healer.

So, a thought to express exactly where I am on the whole “job fantasy” stance. Summoned and Scholar. Both use the same weapon. Both share the same base class. Both summon and use... I’m not sure what to call their offensive magic, I guess just non elemental.

Even if both of them were DPS or Healers I would not consider them the same “job fantasy”. Whereas to hear you all talk about them they would be the same job just about. Does that give an idea of how very different your opinion is from mine?

I focus on the Class Fantasy because if you have SMN and SCH both in the same role you have two classes doing the same job in the exact same manner: Summoning to Heal/DPS. These two get away with it because even if the core idea is the same (Summoning) they utilize their core idea in opposite manners (Healing and DPS). Another hypothetical example is having a sniper/musket Ranged Physical. The lore will be different from MCH and they'll have different attacks but at the end of the day they both have similar themes (gun wielding Ranged DPS) and would feel redundant.

WHM and GEO would both heal with the power of nature. If a new player wants the fantasy of a healer using the elements to heal, they could pick CNJ. Adding GEO would give them 2 options, which mind you none of the other roles have, but it wouldn’t really amount much more than “CNJ, but Japanese”.

4. Trying to speculate on how many people would be excited or disappointed about an unknown job based off of subjective similarity to another job is pointless. You could just as easily say Casters would be disappointed to get Geomancer and thus they won't even do the job at all because it was similar to White Mage. At the end of the day you're dealing with such a small, small, small part of what a job looks like (what elements it uses) and then attempting to write whole cloth what that must mean.

Disappointment about not getting the Job you want is one thing. Disappointment about getting a Job that’s similar to one we have in the same role would be a whole other level. It's a very realistic thing to keep in mind especially for a company with paying customers so you can't exactly rule it out.

[Roda]

This is it. This is exactly our point. With how SE wrote CNJ lore, and with how they’ve presented GEO up to this point, you can effectively sum up GEO as “Conjurer, but Japanese”. WHM may lose their elemental attacks but based on the animations of their Cure spells, I’d say they’re water-aspected, like I imagine GEO would probably do. Even Divine Benison is water-aspected. There’s too much overlap to justify them as a healer.

Nitpick here, cure is wind-aspected.

[BasicBlake]

I mean hell, if Geomancer was a healer why did he need us to heal the barrier and Kinko? Coulda straight up just done it himself?

Now I do expect Geo to have A HEAL, akin to red mage and summoner, I just don’t see it being the main focus of the class.

[GucciSan]

Nitpick here, cure is wind-aspected.

Imagine playing WHM for 80 levels and never realizing this

[BasicBlake]

This is it. This is exactly our point. With how SE wrote CNJ lore, and with how they’ve presented GEO up to this point, you can effectively sum up GEO as “Conjurer, but Japanese”. WHM may lose their elemental attacks but based on the animations of their Cure spells, I’d say they’re water-aspected, like I imagine GEO would probably do. Even Divine Benison is water-aspected. There’s too much overlap to justify them as a healer.


I focus on the Class Fantasy because if you have SMN and SCH both in the same role you have two classes doing the same job in the exact same manner: Summoning to Heal/DPS. These two get away with it because even if the core idea is the same (Summoning) they utilize their core idea in opposite manners (Healing and DPS). Another hypothetical example is having a sniper/musket Ranged Physical. The lore will be different from MCH and they'll have different attacks but at the end of the day they both have similar themes (gun wielding Ranged DPS) and would feel redundant.

WHM and GEO would both heal with the power of nature. If a new player wants the fantasy of a healer using the elements to heal, they could pick CNJ. Adding GEO would give them 2 options, which mind you none of the other roles have, but it wouldn’t really amount much more than “CNJ, but Japanese”.



Disappointment about not getting the Job you want is one thing. Disappointment about getting a Job that’s similar to one we have in the same role would be a whole other level. It's a very realistic thing to keep in mind especially for a company with paying customers so you can't exactly rule it out.

To nail in on this last bit, it would be like someone who is expecting to get a berserker tank when we already have Warrior. Could you argue 13 pages for it, sure. Would they put it in? Eh.

[CatsWithShoes]

I imagined a system of popping down crystals related to different biomes and spells having different effects depending an whether a target or the caster was standing in them? heal more, do a shield, buff dmg? maybe different effects for enemies and party members.. i think they were really hoping to make a healer that felt like it played differently than what we have already.

[MirronTulaxia]

So, a thought to express exactly where I am on the whole “job fantasy” stance. Summoned and Scholar. Both use the same weapon. Both share the same base class. Both summon and use... I’m not sure what to call their offensive magic, I guess just non elemental.

Even if both of them were DPS or Healers I would not consider them the same “job fantasy”. Whereas to hear you all talk about them they would be the same job just about. Does that give an idea of how very different your opinion is from mine?

[BasicBlake]

-snip-

So you keep telling us what we have shown in terms of why we think it will be a caster is subjective and they could just change an expansions worth of lore, but what reasoning do you have for it being a healer outside of you just "thinking so"? Because there has been no indication that they would be pushing it in that direction. You are very very vocal about only seeing this class as a healer, but why? Just a gut feeling? I mean I could be remembering this whole thread wrong but rather than say why you want it as healer you have just been telling everyone "No".

That would be like if Paladin hadn't been released yet, and they gave us an expansion's worth of story showing them as tanks and then them throwing it into the game as a melee dps.