Geomancer

[BasicBlake]

I'd rather see GEO as a caster, since adding it as a healer would give it too much overlap with WHM. WHM may not have those elemental spells anymore but SE didn't get rid of them completely and you still have them when you sync down. GEO would utilize them in different ways but having two healers fulfill essentially the same aesthetic up to a point wouldn't feel very creative. It would be much more interesting to see those elemental spells pushed into a more damage focused direction and be a mirror of SMN and SCH; two jobs that fulfill the same aesthetic (summoning) but use it in opposite ways.



IMO Chemist is the one that makes the most sense to add as a healer seeing as how it would be completely unique compared to the 3 we have now. The team focus on the idea of class fantasy and they might want to capitalize on those that want on a more mundane healing style that relies on technology instead of magic; we already have 3 casters in the role and having a fourth would feel stale. AFAIK it's also the last job they could add to the role that was explicitly a healer in previous games.

This is exactly what I always say when people are saying they want Geo to be put in the game as a healer. Everyone complains about homogenization but then want whm 2.0 when it would fit so much better as a caster. Leaving chemist open for such a different concept on healing.

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

Regen originally appears as a command ability in FFIV for Fusoya, who is arguably a more White Mage Sage. Either way the status of "heal over time" is not originally from FFV's Time Magic, and really is pretty consistently looped into White Magic as is, only really existing as a unique spell for Time Mages here and there. And my point was that Geomancers have more than just Regen, they have multiple healing options. Single target, multi target, and even placed terrain effects.

As far as how XIV uses it, I wouldn't call the Hildebrand story a good example of what one can expect given we know Goldsmith's aren't going to be pulling off Limit Breaks anytime soon. As far as Benefic goes I'm not really sure what you're referencing. In broad terms Time Magic is mostly unexplored. Note that none of what I'm saying is that they can't be healers, just that it's hardly more sensible than Geomancers.

And at the end of the day I don't really want or not want any job as a particular role. Barring pointing out that Chemist would simply be another mage I don't really have any particular points to make, simply that they can make a number of jobs healers and it would fit. Just as they could make all the jobs we are discussing Caster DPS and it would fit. I also don't agree with the idea that White Mage is just Geomancer though either. Those are really the three points I'm making.

1. Most jobs could go into a number of roles. You could have Chemist be a Ranged Physical DPS, a Ranged Magical DPS, a Healer, it would fit pretty well. Straight mages have a harder time getting out into the other three DoW roles, but that's kind of to be expected. Even still almost all mages (if not all barring the obvious Black/White exception) could fit into Healer or Ranged Magical DPS with almost no issue. Most jobs are not strictly a healer in FF terms, which means some degree of fudging is going to have to be allowed to make an existing job fit. Geomancer, Time Mage, and Chemist all could do it, and it wouldn't be weird. Summoner or Red Mage could have done it too.

2. Chemist, if it's a Healer, is still going to be a mage. It isn't going to be something drastically different from the existing jobs. You can just look at Alchemist to get an idea of what we'd likely see. It would fit how it was portrayed in FFV, FFT, FFTA, FFTA2, and FFE. The only real exception to Chemists being tied to magical things is FFX-2 honestly. At least in terms of the overly broad way people use magic currently.

3. Geomancer, even if another healer, would not be the same as White Mage. Even if White Mage had kept the elements it wouldn't have been, but losing the elements (and they certainly could go further back and wipe them out if they so desire, but really having it pre 72 is kind of a weak argument to me) only makes it more obvious if they go that road. But whether or not White Mage has those elements Geomancer is more than able to stand on its own two feet.

Edit: I'll add, if you keep calling Geomancer White Mage 2.0 then you're just making the case for why it should be a healer all the stronger. While I don't have any particular stance on the matter White Mages are the straight forward Healer archetype. If Geomancer can reasonably be called the same thing as White Mage then it should be a Healer. So then you're left with two options. Either White Mages and Geomancers are different, in which case the Healer homogenization isn't an issue, or White Mages and Geomancers are the same, in which case any proper Geomancer should be a Healer because that's the only role White Mages fit. You'll likely try and put some twist on it with "but they're only the same if they're in the same role", but if it can be different as a Ranged Magical DPS then it can be different as a Healer as well, the two are not quite as different as you're making them out to be.

Edit 2: Looking into it, Geomancers also have an Esuna analog of sorts. So they really do have quite a bit more going for them being Healers than Time Mages, as everything a Time Mage can do they can do just about (they really only have Regen to their name after all).

Edit 3: Normally I wouldn't edit so much, but post limit makes me not want to wait for the reply and just keep adding it here. Even in games with Time Magic Regen very frequently goes to White Mages. From what I can tell outside of FFV you have Revenant Wings and... that's it for games with Time Magic where they get Regen. But the entire Tactics line and XII White Mages get it still.

[BasicBlake]

-snip-

For the Hildabrand part it wasn't about the goldsmiths it was about the automaton using time magic to return things to their previous states of being. If a robot can do I don't see why the WoL who is capable of pretty much anything else, wouldn't be able to. As for Benefic, before they lost Time Dilation wasn't the tool tip something to the effect of "reversing targets something to a more beneficial outcome" or something of the sort? It's been years now x.x

As for Chemist, yeah of course it will still be a mage, this is an mmo, everything has to play a certain way in order for balancing. Was never expecting it to break the mold outside of aesthetics and theme. If that is what you were implying you give me too much credit! haha The Healer Chemist Trust in FFXI acts like any other healer in the game except his heals are potion themed and named, that is what I mean by "something different".

I'm calling Geomancer that due to 3 spells, that they focus on, which were what white mages used to. I don't think Geomancer is a 1:1 white mage copy paste, but it would be like shifting black mage to an all void skillset (and them losing Fire/Blizzard/Thunder), and putting another caster in that only uses Fire/Blizzard/Thunder. I know you will disagree with me but that is how I feel.

[MirronTulaxia]

1. My point with Hildebrand is that depictions in it aren't something I would take at face value. Hence the Goldsmith comparison. All sorts of odd things happen in it that wouldn't make a lot of sense.

2. I would still call that a fate related thing personally. But Fate vs Time is up for debate on how people interpret it.

3. My point was more they'd still have Mage aesthetics. The aesthetics they use are pretty much the same as Scholar and that's apparently the same as all the rest.

4. I mean, we don't even know what Geomancers would focus on, so that's jumping the gun pretty early. They could just as easily use all six. Fire, Ice, and Lightning sprites are after all summoned by the spirit of the great forest, and that's certainly a very Geomancer kind of vibe. They may not use any elements, or be purely Earth, or any number of hypothetical answers.

5. Ultimately there is a lot more to a job than the specific elements they use. Red Mage does not feel like a copy of Black and White Mage even though it uses the same elements after all. It even has a balancing act like Black Mage and is a DPS like it as well. Calling them the same thing even with more overlap than a hypothetical Geomancer with a White Mage is pretty absurd and is a vast reduction of how the jobs work.

[BasicBlake]

1. My point with Hildebrand is that depictions in it aren't something I would take at face value. Hence the Goldsmith comparison. All sorts of odd things happen in it that wouldn't make a lot of sense.

2. I would still call that a fate related thing personally. But Fate vs Time is up for debate on how people interpret it.

3. My point was more they'd still have Mage aesthetics. The aesthetics they use are pretty much the same as Scholar and that's apparently the same as all the rest.

4. I mean, we don't even know what Geomancers would focus on, so that's jumping the gun pretty early. They could just as easily use all six. Fire, Ice, and Lightning sprites are after all summoned by the spirit of the great forest, and that's certainly a very Geomancer kind of vibe. They may not use any elements, or be purely Earth, or any number of hypothetical answers.

5. Ultimately there is a lot more to a job than the specific elements they use. Red Mage does not feel like a copy of Black and White Mage even though it uses the same elements after all. It even has a balancing act like Black Mage and is a DPS like it as well. Calling them the same thing even with more overlap than a hypothetical Geomancer with a White Mage is pretty absurd and is a vast reduction of how the jobs work.

It’s not jumping the gun, when the lore book states those are the elements they use, the Geomancer school dungeon focuses on those three elements, the geomancer monsters we fight inside only use three elements, the npc we help in the Ast quest only uses the three elements. Hell the Geomancers under Ganen even used their manipulation of water, earth and air to build Doma Castle. I don’t know what else the game could possible show us in terms of what the class would center on, but it’s not all 6 elements. This was all in the game prior to White Mage losing access to them, this isn’t just a group of people saying “oh white mage lost them give them to Geo”, geomancers in 14 were already focusing on them.

I’m not reducing how the class would work or anything of the sort, it’s been my favorite class since tactics, and was my main in XI for years. I’m just saying 14 developers have given us a pretty good idea of how this class is going to work in THIS iteration of the class.

[MirronTulaxia]

1. And Ishgardian Astrologians wound up looking entirely differently from what we got. Which is kind of my point. Though even if they focus only on those elements it still doesn't make it the same thing, because again, point five talks about Red Mage. It literally uses elements from other jobs, and shares things that at first blush look similar to Black Mage (balancing two different things, and uses two of the same elements while being in the same role). Obviously it didn't turn out the same though in spite of sharing similarities because using the same element is pretty minor when all is said and done.

[BasicBlake]

1. And Ishgardian Astrologians wound up looking entirely differently from what we got. Which is kind of my point. Though even if they focus only on those elements it still doesn't make it the same thing, because again, point five talks about Red Mage. It literally uses elements from other jobs, and shares things that at first blush look similar to Black Mage (balancing two different things, and uses two of the same elements while being in the same role). Obviously it didn't turn out the same though in spite of sharing similarities because using the same element is pretty minor when all is said and done.

No they didn’t. Because Ishgardian Astrologians were nothing but a couple of npc’s at a camp, there wasn’t a full expansion+ of story and dungeons for them. So it’s not that similar. We have quest, backstory, a book, multiple dungeons, that is a lot more to retcon opposed 3 npc’s you have no interaction with.

And yes I know how red mage works I have been playing one since 2006. It plays exactly how you expect it to. And it uses black and white magic just like it always has. That is much different that the lore book saying “this class is very similar to conjurer.”

[MirronTulaxia]

1. They were still present, whether you can agree they were majorly present or not is irrelevant. We still got a second version, it's totally plausible to happen here. It also happened with Gunblades.

2. None of what I propose is a retcon.

3. Red Mages in XIV only popped up in 2017, so you're off by about ten years. Every game does Red Mages (and really any job) at least a little bit different.

4. The lore book didn't say they're the same thing as Conjurer though. Using the same elements is not the same thing as being the same job. Again, we can just look at Red Mage, where it uses some of the same elements, same role, and even has a balance feature like Black Mage. That's a lot more overlap than a hypothetical Geomancer as, if nothing else, it's unlikely it would use lilies as a gimmick. Since Red Mage can be different from Black Mage Geomancer could be different from White Mage, especially when they don't even use the same elements anymore (and really two spells and a wonky ability is not the same thing as an entire job).

[BasicBlake]

1. They were still present, whether you can agree they were majorly present or not is irrelevant. We still got a second version, it's totally plausible to happen here. It also happened with Gunblades.

2. None of what I propose is a retcon.

3. Red Mages in XIV only popped up in 2017, so you're off by about ten years. Every game does Red Mages (and really any job) at least a little bit different.

4. The lore book didn't say they're the same thing as Conjurer though. Using the same elements is not the same thing as being the same job. Again, we can just look at Red Mage, where it uses some of the same elements, same role, and even has a balance feature like Black Mage. That's a lot more overlap than a hypothetical Geomancer as, if nothing else, it's unlikely it would use lilies as a gimmick. Since Red Mage can be different from Black Mage Geomancer could be different from White Mage, especially when they don't even use the same elements anymore (and really two spells and a wonky ability is not the same thing as an entire job).

They were present but there was nothing to change so that makes your point moot. They had no casting, no lore, weren’t involved in anything. They got an outfit change, that is the argument you are so set on?

Go open your lore book, it says that they are similar to conjurers I’m looking right at the paragraph. I never said they were the same I said the book calls them similar.

FFXI came out before 2017, is what I was getting at, you were explaining to me how a class I main is played I was just saying “I know”.

I really do have to ask, are you just arguing to argue? Because this once again is going nowhere.

[GucciSan]

4. The lore book didn't say they're the same thing as Conjurer though. Using the same elements is not the same thing as being the same job. Again, we can just look at Red Mage, where it uses some of the same elements, same role, and even has a balance feature like Black Mage. That's a lot more overlap than a hypothetical Geomancer as, if nothing else, it's unlikely it would use lilies as a gimmick. Since Red Mage can be different from Black Mage Geomancer could be different from White Mage, especially when they don't even use the same elements anymore (and really two spells and a wonky ability is not the same thing as an entire job).

But they do use the same elements though; the best way to think of it is if they decided to add a Cleric to the game, but made it a tank with a hammer; you now have two tanks fulfilling the Holy Protector Knight theme. They’re technically both different on paper, with different skills with different applications, but the Job Fantasy is essentially the same, one just originated from a different location. People say it’d be WHM 2.0 because thematically speaking it kind of is; they both tune to their respective elements (The Elementals and Tengu IIRC) with strong ties to nature. One just loses theirs but it’s still at the core of their Job’s origins. They could rewrite WHM lore so they never had their druid CNJ start but they might as well focus that work on a new Job that doesn’t bleed into one that we already have.

And with RDM there may be some overlap with BLM in terms of spell usage but the key difference is the Class Fantasy. You play BLM if you want to feel like a sorcerer with big spells; you play RDM if you want to feel like a swashbuckling mage with quick fire spells and baller style. There are completely different feelings each Job offers that caters to people looking for that specific thing. It’s a lot harder to separate the class fantasy of two healers with ties to nature.