Endgame content is too stressfull and difficult

[Colt47]

Uh, no? While not as laughably forgiving as Ramuh, E6S' enrage easily allows several deaths provided people aren't completely clueless on how to play their jobs. What throws people off in PuGs is how much they bounce around, especially for melee/tanks who try to stay on the boss and eat stuff they shouldn't. I will say, I don't find E6S practically well designed mostly due to said melee downtime but also a few other mechanics. It isn't hard though. At least imo.

It's possible that if people understand how to move on all the different mechanics, perhaps that bit of increased up-time would hedge the fight more into doable territory. I've been doing it more on tank now and a lot of things are sort of clicking into place as to why certain groups of people just can't pass that fight.

1) They do not understand the significance of positioning on hands of hell in the earlier phases. The person who gets targeted by the real ifrit needs to keep him closer to the group than the other players, and they other players need to keep dps up as long as possible and not just run away with the tethers. I actually caught onto this aspect early on in the attempts.

2) DPS needs to keep DPSing during the meteor strike combo. The issue is the mechanic makes it so that you do not want to be near the tank, as getting hit by any of the techniques will KO a dps instantly. The Tanks need to make sure ifrit isn't flying across the room when he goes at the tethered tank and then back to the other tank who eats the tank buster.

3) Again, players who are stuck are not doing enough research and practice to get through the mechanics before and after conflag. There's even nuances like where a tank should stand for the fire tornadoes, as well as a few tricks to saving valuable cooldowns for healers who are going to get hard pressed.

I'm going to be blunt, if people had DPS meters active in game to show their output, it would probably make this fight far easier to figure out and pass. The issue is that the devs didn't give those tools to players because they are worried about toxicity from their use. I mean, how do you tell someone that their few extra points of damage count on a phase when the drop seems unnoticeable until the enrage? The devs made mechanics that tell people to do the opposite of what they are supposed to do in a sense.

[EthanXdeath]

It's possible that if people understand how to move on all the different mechanics, perhaps that bit of increased up-time would hedge the fight more into doable territory. I've been doing it more on tank now and a lot of things are sort of clicking into place as to why certain groups of people just can't pass that fight.

1) They do not understand the significance of positioning on hands of hell in the earlier phases. The person who gets targeted by the real ifrit needs to keep him closer to the group than the other players, and they other players need to keep dps up as long as possible and not just run away with the tethers. I actually caught onto this aspect early on in the attempts.

2) DPS needs to keep DPSing during the meteor strike combo. The issue is the mechanic makes it so that you do not want to be near the tank, as getting hit by any of the techniques will KO a dps instantly. The Tanks need to make sure ifrit isn't flying across the room when he goes at the tethered tank and then back to the other tank who eats the tank buster.

3) Again, players who are stuck are not doing enough research and practice to get through the mechanics before and after conflag. There's even nuances like where a tank should stand for the fire tornadoes, as well as a few tricks to saving valuable cooldowns for healers who are going to get hard pressed.

I'm going to be blunt, if people had DPS meters active in game to show their output, it would probably make this fight far easier to figure out and pass. The issue is that the devs didn't give those tools to players because they are worried about toxicity from their use. I mean, how do you tell someone that their few extra points of damage count on a phase when the drop seems unnoticeable until the enrage? The devs made mechanics that tell people to do the opposite of what they are supposed to do in a sense.

This is the problem with running with PUGs, it's such a mixed bag, there are I feel a lot of people in PUGs that just don't know their jobs well enough. We do need a dps meter that is built in game, I feel in the sense of to know for example "hey I'm a Samurai and I'm only pulling 10k, I should be pulling 16k." I think a DPS meter would make people more likely to read their tooltips/experiment with their rotations to try and optimize. However, yes wipes are going to happen it's typical but regardless of what you put in your PF, people feel "entitled" and think "I can sneak in and get carried."

[Colt47]

Well, also I got to be blunt that the savage content is probably the least rewarding of the things one can do in FFXIV. Unless someone has a very disciplined group, the time to clear and learn the fights is very high, and by the time anyone gets through savage with an average group, they likely are weeks behind content that provides far greater rewards, such as the ishgard restoration, PVP (yes, I can't believe PvP is ahead of Savage, but it is), Eureka, Relic, housing, primal EX fights, etc.

It really comes down to the fact that incremental rewards that honor a persons time and effort feel better than trying to force one big reward that really hinges on a temporary benefit. Savage in the end is a carry over from "ye old days" where the primary progression path was a one way street. Someone wanted end-game pimp? Get into the 25 to 40 man raids. Someone wanted to be a great crafter? Get into the 25 to 40 man raids to get the end game mats since the final boss drops the mats. Want cool mounts? Get in the 25 man to 40 man raids and do the achievements.

These days most games have gone away from that model in the mainstream because in order to expand the net and get the most customers, the game has to be able to reward the greatest number of people possible. The reason WoW became a toxic nightmare isn't because it had savage / hard mode raids: it was because it was the only option people had to progress and therefore you had people who didn't want to do end game raiding stuck in end game raiding. It made the end game into a business where people often spent an entire work week grinding through bosses, and we even got into an arms race with the Blizzard devs with Boss Mods and other warning / learning assist systems. FFXIV fights really are not easier than WoWs fights, they just built in all the warning systems in the game.

But yeah, DPS meter fear is kind of unfounded in my mind. It was never the tool that led to toxicity as much as the endgame content butting against the level of ability people had from non-endgame content. Not to mention it's pointless to discuss difficulty with end game fights since people take an "its about my skill" stance when MMO fights are team forays. It doesn't matter how good someone is individually if the fight requires you and 7+ other people. The only factor you have in your control is yourself and you can't do anything about the other seven, so fights will be "easy" or "way too harsh" depending on who those other 7 people are.

[Maeka]

Savage content is optional content geared towards the Hardcore crowd.

As much of a casual as I am, even I have to admit that the Hardcores who are seeking thrills, glory and challenge deserve a slice of the game. Seriously, normal raids are easy enough that even someone like myself can do, and there's very little difference between Savage and Normal other than the increased difficulty, better rewards, and 1 phase on the last boss fight in a raid series.

Savage is basically Normal, in a harder mode and there's nothing wrong with this. You're not missing out on any actual real content by choosing to stick with Normals. Just.... as other players have eloquently said.... don't do it. It's not meant for you, and that's fair.

FFXIV is extremely forgiving when it comes to difficulty and challenge in 90% of its content. I think having 10% of the content be geared towards more dedicated, skilled players is perfectly OK.

Because.... well, I came from a game where it's the other way around (WoW) and I will tell you that is far worse. In WoW, there's almost 0 content other than grindy daily stuff that's taillored for the casual player. It's all Mythic (and/or Mythic+) and all manual based grouping. The casual Duty Finder stuff in WoW? Worthless. The rewards are so low that they're not worth doing, and a lot of dungeons, you can't even do with the Duty Finder-like system over there, as they are Mythic-Only. And even if you did try to do Heroics, have fun with those 60+ minute DPS wait times.

So let the dedicated and skilled players have their Savage content. There's nothing wrong with simply not partaking of it, if it's too hard/frustrating/difficult for you.

[Ramesses]

Endgame content (savages especially) is too difficult and therefore too stressful.

I thought your English was superb and I deeply respect your effort to write this.

Honestly though, if you find them stressful, then just don't do them until much much later-- in fact a lot of players wait until the next expansion before going back to attempt past savage battles. You have to understand that end game content is supposed to be very difficult to give certain types of players a solid challenge while also keeping them fully engaged with the game.

Just relax, don't let this stress you and remember that there are many MANY other things to do within the game.

[EONX_]

The issue with the fight is that the DPS check is tough as is and you can't actually practice the entire fight like you can with Ramuh when others are not up to speed.

It basically comes down to "people are not psychic". There's no way to know how to handle something if they have never even seen the effect before, especially if they are dying to other mechanics the entire time, and the part people are dying to in the pugs is really far into the fight.

There are a lot of issues I have about this post. Not being able to practice the fight in the first 3-4 minutes (like you basically can do with Ramuh) isn't a problem with the fight in any stretch of the imagination. Something that most players don't recognize is how important CONSISTENCY really is when it comes to savage. If you can't consistently get back to a mechanic you're trying to prog because your group keeps dying to previous mechanics, yeah it's absolutely going to make progging the fight more difficult, but that's not an issue with the fight. Honestly, I'll make the argument that e6s is VERY fair with making you learn mechanics that you'll see later in the fight. For example;

Very opening of the fight you'll get Storm of Fury (the tethers that target the four DPS) and a point blank AoE around the boss. This same mechanic comes back later in the fight and works exactly the same way, just it adds Air Bump prior to it.

Hands of Hell appears multiple times in Ifrit phase, giving you a lot of practice for how many times it comes up later in the fight. Start of phase 4, you get two hands of hell mechanics back to back (with an added inverse line AoE in the direction of the players tethered). After conflag and the following Storm of Fury, you get even more Hands of Hell mechanics that work the exact same way as before, just that they add another mechanic to it (first Hands of Hell after Storm of Fury just has the small line AoEs that'll cut the tethers, second will have Air Bumps that resolve directly before ifrit clones charge the tethered players).

The only new thing phase 4 actually adds to the fight is Conflag, and literally nothing else. It has the same mechanics as previous phases in the fight just with more stuff to do at the same time. This fight is very fair with its mechanics, and honestly gets way too much negative feedback from most players that I see talk about it, in my opinion.

[EONX_]

Now allow me to point out a very similar point in e2s. e2s literally does the exact same mechanical rotation as e6s if you think about it. In e2s you spend the entire fight dealing with various Doomvoid attacks (Cleaver (spreads), Guillotine (line down the middle of the boss), and Slicer (donut/dynamo)). By the time you get to the end where Quietus is, you should have more than enough experience with those Doomvoid mechanics to be able to do them consistently. The final two major mechanics of e2s is Cycle of Chaos and Cycle of Retribution. At their core, they are literally nothing but the same three doomvoid mechanics you've seen prior, just used back to back quickly and in very specific mechanical rotation (Cycle of Chaos; Guillotine, Slicer, Cleaver. Cycle of Retribution; Slicer, Cleaver, Guillotine). e6s does an extremely similar move with it's mechanics, but it raises the ball and adds an additional mechanic to it (again, a good example is Air Bump > Storm of Fury in the 4th phase).

All this comes back to consistency. If your group cannot get back to the final phase to practice mechanics because of mistakes made earlier in the fight, that's a problem with the group. If a player is occasionally dying to mechanics and can't do them consistently, that's a fault of the player. Judging a savage tier based off of pugs is very unwise and is hardly fair to the content. Pugs, generally, are not consistent by nature. When you PF you will not match with the same players most of the time, aka not consistent.

Going back to the topic the OP originally started with, I'll keep this brief because other players here have said it multiple times. If you think the content is too hard, then it's probably not for you. There are players that are getting along in it just fine, even if it's their first tier. If you're struggling and do want to get better, there are multiple resources out there that'll teach you how to get better both as a player and at the job/role you're playing. It's fine if you think the content is difficult, just don't go saying the fights are flawed because you personally are struggling with the fight.

(I had to cut this up since I had a lot to say lmfao)

[Crushnight]

As someone who has raided every tier since second coil of Bahamut, only 1 fight this tier, E8s, could have the moniker of being overtuned and quite frankly it's fine as all it actually asks for is low green (25%-49%) so 25%-30% from all 8 players while doing mechanics and anyone at that stage should have the necessary requirements for it.

But never judge anything based on pugs. I learned all of E8s by end of week 3 took 2 more weeks of wiping on enrage to get kill, and has been pretty smooth for weeklies since then. Random people comes random skill levels.

The worse aspect of e6s is the clashing colours with aoe markers/background/ground, everything else about that fight very reasonable, I certainly don't want another Alte Roite (for those unaware o1s was easier than Susano Ex and is regarded as a complete joke of a fight by raiders especially as it was killed in 1 pull) so dumbing down savage even more no thank you, if you really don't want to put the effort/time needed for it you don't need the reward, you just want it and worsening the content to those that currently enjoy it just so you can get your sparkles no fam.

[Colt47]

As someone who has raided every tier since second coil of Bahamut, only 1 fight this tier, E8s, could have the moniker of being overtuned and quite frankly it's fine as all it actually asks for is low green (25%-49%) so 25%-30% from all 8 players while doing mechanics and anyone at that stage should have the necessary requirements for it.

But never judge anything based on pugs. I learned all of E8s by end of week 3 took 2 more weeks of wiping on enrage to get kill, and has been pretty smooth for weeklies since then. Random people comes random skill levels.

The worse aspect of e6s is the clashing colours with aoe markers/background/ground, everything else about that fight very reasonable, I certainly don't want another Alte Roite (for those unaware o1s was easier than Susano Ex and is regarded as a complete joke of a fight by raiders especially as it was killed in 1 pull) so dumbing down savage even more no thank you, if you really don't want to put the effort/time needed for it you don't need the reward, you just want it and worsening the content to those that currently enjoy it just so you can get your sparkles no fam.

Well, this is actually the crux of the entire problem right here and why we even have this post. The problem is that savage is not something that should ever be on the PF. It should take a group of people who agree to the terms of the fight and are willing to do it together to even enter the content, but SE doesn't enforce this due to... magical faerie dust reasons as far as I know.

For example, Extreme Trials are fine for PF because they are more forgiving and hit just the right difficulty for most groups to figure out even if they do not organize. Miseria Memoria is also a good example of proper difficulty for something meant for most PF groups. Savage content is "overtuned" for typical PF play and as much as I respect what EONX_ above is really getting at; that if your group is not good enough to get to X phase than something is wrong, that is a constant when dealing with randomly organized groups of people.

A PF group is still a DF group. The only thing PF gives as an advantage over DF is that the maker of the group can tweak specifications and leave messages (typically "get off my lawn" messages) to try and guide who joins or not. Even then, since the only thing someone can enforce via PF is the ILvL and completion status, it is far from granular enough to assure everyone who joins for savage is at the same point.

So really, what is happening is that we got the blame of toxicity falling on DPS Meters (which can be proven are not the source of toxicity), and the woes of PF randomness for the difficulty of the actual savage content. The only thing SE can do to enforce this is to take the Savage content off the PF and only allow someone to queue for it with a full group of 8. They'd have to find some replacement for savage on the PF that is of lower difficulty and can offer similar rewards (like the dye-able armor versions of the Edengate or Edencall gear).

Personally, I think the latter is far more likely than the former since the devs have said repeatedly that they want to allocate resources to the greatest returns in player enjoyment. Savage just isn't that thing and is mostly there to check off a check box. I do think they need to take exclusivity away from savage on dye-able gear and that it will happen in the next expansion or the one following.

[Stepjam]

Pugs may be a crapshoot, but they are definitely doable.