Endgame content is too stressfull and difficult

[EthanXdeath]

Well, after doing savage for a couple weeks to get a feel for what the end game is like I'm going to say "yes the devs over-tuned it", but I'm going to preface that by also saying they didn't intend this content to be run by most people. Albeit, even for those people E6S is really badly designed with some not-so-obvious pitfalls.

You can definitely figure it out eventually, but I'm not surprised if people just get walled on that one.

Considering they added Ultimate, there really isn't a need to have savage be super tuned hardcore mode anyway. What people want right now is something more akin to a normal level of difficulty raiding scene that they can grind to get the dye-able eden sets. Also, I think that the only thing having something on the level of Eden Savage will bring is a ton of toxic people wanting to throttle each other as they struggle to find some way to get past the content, with the few groups that do get through the wall basically bouncing back until they are bored with trying to provide charity runs.

It kind of makes you wonder why someone would even bother making content when they know it is going to go toxic.

E6S really isn't that bad of a fight, it's definitely tough and a wall for some. But in all honesty it's not that bad if everyone in the group understands their job, the Tank Buster's are up to the tanks to handle and mitigate damage and swap properly.

Also this tier isn't over tuned it's fine as is, it just happens to be PUNISHING for mistakes, as savage should be, yes you can recover from mistakes in savage and it'll come down to the wire. However, Savage is no where near ultimate, you make one mistake in an ultimate and it's basically over. Ultimate also requires 20 to 25 minutes of perfect play which that in of itself is the what makes it so difficult and rewarding. Savage is tough and is a 2 steps up from Ex trials. I'd honestly suggest anyone who wants to do savage content should be breezing through Ex trials, otherwise yes you'll struggle quite a bit in Savage.

[Colt47]

E6S really isn't that bad of a fight, it's definitely tough and a wall for some. But in all honesty it's not that bad if everyone in the group understands their job, the Tank Buster's are up to the tanks to handle and mitigate damage and swap properly.

Also this tier isn't over tuned it's fine as is, it just happens to be PUNISHING for mistakes, as savage should be, yes you can recover from mistakes in savage and it'll come down to the wire. However, Savage is no where near ultimate, you make one mistake in an ultimate and it's basically over. Ultimate also requires 20 to 25 minutes of perfect play which that in of itself is the what makes it so difficult and rewarding. Savage is tough and is a 2 steps up from Ex trials. I'd honestly suggest anyone who wants to do savage content should be breezing through Ex trials, otherwise yes you'll struggle quite a bit in Savage.

The issue with the fight is that the DPS check is tough as is and you can't actually practice the entire fight like you can with Ramuh when others are not up to speed. Ramuh you still essentially "see" the furious 14 before he gets to double horses and you see chain lightning pretty much mid fight. There is no way to see a lesser conflag before getting to conflag, and there is no way to really practice the exact positioning and movements needed for post conflag before post conflag.

Changes I'd make to the fight is having ifrit himself do a conflag in the first part of the fight with a slightly simplified version of the late fight conflag. Then make positioning a bit more clear on hands of hell by having ifrit center in the room after the first conflag and force people to position the tethers on inter-cardinals to avoid getting a debuff. This would replace the pointless dead weight transformation sequence they kept in there with an interactive one.

If those two changes were there, I'd have no complaints because then everyone regardless of how far they really have made it would have been forced to go through the Conflag.

It basically comes down to "people are not psychic". There's no way to know how to handle something if they have never even seen the effect before, especially if they are dying to other mechanics the entire time, and the part people are dying to in the pugs is really far into the fight.

[Stepjam]

Sure, players aren't psychic, but failing and retrying is part of the learning process. You don't have to get it right the first time.

And video guides have been out for a good while now, you do have a way of knowing ahead of time. And if you wanna do blind prog, that's okay too, but you gotta accept that wiping will be an inevitable thing

[EthanXdeath]

The issue with the fight is that the DPS check is tough as is and you can't actually practice the entire fight like you can with Ramuh when others are not up to speed. Ramuh you still essentially "see" the furious 14 before he gets to double horses and you see chain lightning pretty much mid fight. There is no way to see a lesser conflag before getting to conflag, and there is no way to really practice the exact positioning and movements needed for post conflag before post conflag.

Changes I'd make to the fight is having ifrit himself do a conflag in the first part of the fight with a slightly simplified version of the late fight conflag. Then make positioning a bit more clear on hands of hell by having ifrit center in the room after the first conflag and force people to position the tethers on inter-cardinals to avoid getting a debuff. This would replace the pointless dead weight transformation sequence they kept in there with an interactive one.

If those two changes were there, I'd have no complaints because then everyone regardless of how far they really have made it would have been forced to go through the Conflag.

It basically comes down to "people are not psychic". There's no way to know how to handle something if they have never even seen the effect before, especially if they are dying to other mechanics the entire time, and the part people are dying to in the pugs is really far into the fight.

Just wait till you get to shiva knockback mirrors... WOOO BOY, you have no idea.

[Colt47]

I've been seeing the hours spent in this and don't even think this is worth the time to really do, honestly. E1S-E4S was definitely more the speed I'd expect for something that is "challenging but still doable". If a good group can punch through it in about two to three weeks than it's definitely worth the time, but otherwise getting stuck on something like E6S or even E7S for weeks on end? People are spending like 3 hours a day on this stuff in some cases. That sounds like chinese water torture and I've only been stuck on E6S for maybe 3 weeks because of pugs and just general bad luck.

It's one of those things where if everything goes and lines up it's great, and for most it's probably not going to line up.

[Frizze]

I've been seeing the hours spent in this and don't even think this is worth the time to really do, honestly. E1S-E4S was definitely more the speed I'd expect for something that is "challenging but still doable". If a good group can punch through it in about two to three weeks than it's definitely worth the time, but otherwise getting stuck on something like E6S or even E7S for weeks on end? People are spending like 3 hours a day on this stuff in some cases. That sounds like chinese water torture and I've only been stuck on E6S for maybe 3 weeks because of pugs and just general bad luck.

It's one of those things where if everything goes and lines up it's great, and for most it's probably not going to line up.

If you dont think its worth the time, they why are you doing it? Savage gets you bragging rights(the mount is included in this but literally no one else cares about your accomplishments), it gets you slightly better gear(which is only useful if theres an ultimate for the current tier - and we all know that right now there isnt), and it gets you a 3 month lead on outfitting your classes. Then 6 months later, a new tier comes out and your slightly better gear is below crafted quality again and you have 4 new fights to try mastering. If that treadmill isnt worth it to you, then get off. Tome gear will be more then enough to get you into the next tier while you work on getting new stuff(hell, if you arent doing the harder content then the current crafted/normal raid tier will get you through the next tier).

And side note, but shouldnt the 2nd tier of a raid series be harder then the first? Then the third tier harder still? Shouldnt we be building toward E12S being one of the hardest fights of the expansion?

[EthanXdeath]

If you dont think its worth the time, they why are you doing it? Savage gets you bragging rights(the mount is included in this but literally no one else cares about your accomplishments), it gets you slightly better gear(which is only useful if theres an ultimate for the current tier - and we all know that right now there isnt), and it gets you a 3 month lead on outfitting your classes. Then 6 months later, a new tier comes out and your slightly better gear is below crafted quality again and you have 4 new fights to try mastering. If that treadmill isnt worth it to you, then get off. Tome gear will be more then enough to get you into the next tier while you work on getting new stuff(hell, if you arent doing the harder content then the current crafted/normal raid tier will get you through the next tier).

And side note, but shouldnt the 2nd tier of a raid series be harder then the first? Then the third tier harder still? Shouldnt we be building toward E12S being one of the hardest fights of the expansion?

Completely 100% agree. Each tier should be harder than the next. That to me is what makes it fun.

[EthanXdeath]

I've been seeing the hours spent in this and don't even think this is worth the time to really do, honestly. E1S-E4S was definitely more the speed I'd expect for something that is "challenging but still doable". If a good group can punch through it in about two to three weeks than it's definitely worth the time, but otherwise getting stuck on something like E6S or even E7S for weeks on end? People are spending like 3 hours a day on this stuff in some cases. That sounds like chinese water torture and I've only been stuck on E6S for maybe 3 weeks because of pugs and just general bad luck.

It's one of those things where if everything goes and lines up it's great, and for most it's probably not going to line up.

I started mid StormBlood back in 4.3, when I first went into savage I was Tanking in O5S, it took a bit I managed to beat it, then tried my hand at O6S, again took time with Pugs but managed to beat it. Got to O7S and HOLY MOOGLE on a stick, I wiped there for weeks and weeks with little to no progress and decided I needed to find a consistent group to even consider tackling savage, this got reinforced when I got to O10S as well which I believe was even harder than O7S. It was from that moment on I thought to myself I wont use PUGs for savage prog/clear again. It's as someone said in a post above, a group that learns quick and is able to keep up is KEY.

[EONX_]

The issue with the fight is that the DPS check is tough as is and you can't actually practice the entire fight like you can with Ramuh when others are not up to speed.

It basically comes down to "people are not psychic". There's no way to know how to handle something if they have never even seen the effect before, especially if they are dying to other mechanics the entire time, and the part people are dying to in the pugs is really far into the fight.

There are a lot of issues I have about this post. Not being able to practice the fight in the first 3-4 minutes (like you basically can do with Ramuh) isn't a problem with the fight in any stretch of the imagination. Something that most players don't recognize is how important CONSISTENCY really is when it comes to savage. If you can't consistently get back to a mechanic you're trying to prog because your group keeps dying to previous mechanics, yeah it's absolutely going to make progging the fight more difficult, but that's not an issue with the fight. Honestly, I'll make the argument that e6s is VERY fair with making you learn mechanics that you'll see later in the fight. For example;

Very opening of the fight you'll get Storm of Fury (the tethers that target the four DPS) and a point blank AoE around the boss. This same mechanic comes back later in the fight and works exactly the same way, just it adds Air Bump prior to it.

Hands of Hell appears multiple times in Ifrit phase, giving you a lot of practice for how many times it comes up later in the fight. Start of phase 4, you get two hands of hell mechanics back to back (with an added inverse line AoE in the direction of the players tethered). After conflag and the following Storm of Fury, you get even more Hands of Hell mechanics that work the exact same way as before, just that they add another mechanic to it (first Hands of Hell after Storm of Fury just has the small line AoEs that'll cut the tethers, second will have Air Bumps that resolve directly before ifrit clones charge the tethered players).

The only new thing phase 4 actually adds to the fight is Conflag, and literally nothing else. It has the same mechanics as previous phases in the fight just with more stuff to do at the same time. This fight is very fair with its mechanics, and honestly gets way too much negative feedback from most players that I see talk about it, in my opinion.

[EONX_]

Now allow me to point out a very similar point in e2s. e2s literally does the exact same mechanical rotation as e6s if you think about it. In e2s you spend the entire fight dealing with various Doomvoid attacks (Cleaver (spreads), Guillotine (line down the middle of the boss), and Slicer (donut/dynamo)). By the time you get to the end where Quietus is, you should have more than enough experience with those Doomvoid mechanics to be able to do them consistently. The final two major mechanics of e2s is Cycle of Chaos and Cycle of Retribution. At their core, they are literally nothing but the same three doomvoid mechanics you've seen prior, just used back to back quickly and in very specific mechanical rotation (Cycle of Chaos; Guillotine, Slicer, Cleaver. Cycle of Retribution; Slicer, Cleaver, Guillotine). e6s does an extremely similar move with it's mechanics, but it raises the ball and adds an additional mechanic to it (again, a good example is Air Bump > Storm of Fury in the 4th phase).

All this comes back to consistency. If your group cannot get back to the final phase to practice mechanics because of mistakes made earlier in the fight, that's a problem with the group. If a player is occasionally dying to mechanics and can't do them consistently, that's a fault of the player. Judging a savage tier based off of pugs is very unwise and is hardly fair to the content. Pugs, generally, are not consistent by nature. When you PF you will not match with the same players most of the time, aka not consistent.

Going back to the topic the OP originally started with, I'll keep this brief because other players here have said it multiple times. If you think the content is too hard, then it's probably not for you. There are players that are getting along in it just fine, even if it's their first tier. If you're struggling and do want to get better, there are multiple resources out there that'll teach you how to get better both as a player and at the job/role you're playing. It's fine if you think the content is difficult, just don't go saying the fights are flawed because you personally are struggling with the fight.

(I had to cut this up since I had a lot to say lmfao)