General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Deceptus]

That's one camp dude, and it's also the approach that prevents circumventing this problem. That's why those two views directly oppose each other. The other camp are the healers who want to heal more. Within this camp you will find healers who do want more offensive skills in their kit, and don't mind doing damage during downtime; they just want less opportunity to use them during encounters due to an increased healing requirement.

That's kind of the answer isn't it? Let the DPS skills be there. Those that want to use them can, those that want to ignore them can ignore them.

If the pure healers get fewer groups because groups want healers to DPS, that's a community decision.

In short: More options is almost always better than fewer options. Hell, even SE said so themselves, they didn't want to take away options but for some reason they did with healers.

[Granyala]

Nope. Reducing MP costs across the board means access to more MP for Healers. Every encounter would have to be adjusted to accommodate this because you're essentially giving healers nigh infinite mp if not careful.

Outside of rezzes (which should be prohibitively expensive), healers have infinite MP right now, so that point is completely moot.

You can very easily tune the mana to be sufficient for [unavoidable damage] + [desired compensation % for player error], any more compensating done on the side of the healer would drain his mana and punish the group later in the fight. This is how healing worked in WoW and it worked pretty well.

As for expert dungeon tuning: Once a new tier comes, the old tome gear can be bought for the scrip that are unlimited. So I see no reason whatsoever to not tune them to the target of the unaugmented old script gear. By halfing the cost of the old gear, newbies could very easily grind it out in the older dungeons, get ready for expert and expert could drop gear that was actually useful to them at the item level of the upgraded old tome gear.

Seriously, if you think this all can't be done, you lack imagination. The healing systems are fine, it's mostly the numbers that are tuned way too lax.

I guess you skipped Bardem's Mettle and Holminster Switch. Seriously some of you 'savage raiders' need to like gone some where, because you forgot how the rest of the game actually plays.

No I didn't. I even did it with trust.
Easy.

Bardams mettle? Don't make me laugh. The only dangerous thing in there were undergeared tanks that thought: "imma awesome, imma pull EVERYTHING™"
That's true for any leveling dungeon though and that was also true for Academy Anyder when it was freshly released. Them big fish groups hid adequately hard on mass pulls and you know what? It was more fun than it is now.

[Breezelyn]

Just putting my two senses here:

A healer's dps could mean the life or a wipe of an entire party. It DOES make a difference, even if it's just a few hits here and there with re-applying their DoT (or DoTs). I always dps when no one needs healing and/or is topped off. I only switch to pure healer is when there's a lot party-wide damage going out. But most of the time I'm in dps mode with the rest of the party. People need to get a bit out of their comfort zone and just dps. Dps when you find open windows. It makes a difference in a run with it bit being faster. So please, healers, dps when you find open windows.

Signed: a fellow casual healer.

[Shofie]

I don't mind when healers DPS.

I object to attitudes about healer DPS when it's:

A) expected in all situations regardless of anything else that may be a consideration;
B) I have to play with healers who prioritize DPS over healing (and usually cause deaths/wipes).

I don't care if anyone wants to DPS as a healer, as long as healing is still their main priority.

I bring this up every time there's a debate about healer dps, but not all healers are created equal, and not all of us are comfortable dpsing all the time in every single situation--which should be fine--! but people get hellbent sometimes that a healer HAS to be dpsing or they're a "bad" healer, throwing literally every other bit of reasoning out the window for it.

Some healers aren't very well geared, some of their tanks are badly geared. Sometimes groups struggle with mechanics and the healer has to compensate (Every mechanic becomes a healer mechanic on a long enough time line!) and the healer dpsing just isn't always feasible, and I wish more people understood that.

[Shofie]

Just putting my two senses here:

A healer's dps could mean the life or a wipe of an entire party.

If a healer dpsing literally means a wipe or not in "casual" content (as you describe yourself as a casual healer), there are very serious issues at play, because it's been stated many, many times that healer dps is never required to do any content; and only "useful" to groups pushing cutting edge endgame content to squeak a win out ahead of another group slightly faster.

Healer dps is a nice bonus, a cherry on your ice cream sundae, not the entire dang bowl of ice cream. You can live without it, it's just a little faster and a little nicer with it. It does not "mean the life or wipe of an entire party" unless your party has very, very bad dps or something.

[Billythepancake]

I don't mind when healers DPS.

I object to attitudes about healer DPS when it's:

A) expected in all situations regardless of anything else that may be a consideration;
B) I have to play with healers who prioritize DPS over healing (and usually cause deaths/wipes).

I don't care if anyone wants to DPS as a healer, as long as healing is still their main priority.

I bring this up every time there's a debate about healer dps, but not all healers are created equal, and not all of us are comfortable dpsing all the time in every single situation--which should be fine--! but people get hellbent sometimes that a healer HAS to be dpsing or they're a "bad" healer, throwing literally every other bit of reasoning out the window for it.

Some healers aren't very well geared, some of their tanks are badly geared. Sometimes groups struggle with mechanics and the healer has to compensate (Every mechanic becomes a healer mechanic on a long enough time line!) and the healer dpsing just isn't always feasible, and I wish more people understood that.

I consider a healer that does 0 DPS bad in the same sense I consider a RDM that only spams jolt bad, or a DPS that only uses autos bad. Will it get you through the basic content? Sure, eventually, but it makes things take substantially longer. Healer DPS is nothing to scoff at right now, they're out DPSing tanks, (on a personal note, in a lot of my personal roulettes I've, allegedly, out DPSed a lot of the DPS too.) and if they're just spamming a level 1 cure they''re playing extremely poorly.

That's not to say I really care when I'm just doing roulettes, but it's hard not to notice.

As for Healer DPS not being a factor in clearing casual content? No duh, even DPS damage isn't a factor in clearing basic content. You could have a SAM use 2 GCDs the entire dungeon run and still clear it. Doesn't mean it's something to condone or something that shouldn't be pointed out. Maybe I'm of a different mindset though. I've never gotten upset when someone told me ways I could improve, or what I could be doing better, yet, when I've tried to tell a WHM that they shouldn't spam Medica II for every single heal they lashed out at me and wouldn't stop going on about what an "elistist" I am.

[Awha]

Meh, give people the option to do juggle healing and damage. If people want to play as a pure healer so be it they can find liked minded players that do not mind it.

However, those that enjoy playing as a healer have no option outside of playing a dps class, and when they are healing the other is to spam one or two buttons throughout the run.

I get more buttons does not mean more complex, but having more things to press beats having less. Granted I would just prefer them to bring back cleric stance swapping I enjoyed it greatly trying to maximize cleric uptime while not letting people die. Sure I let many tanks die pushing my limits at the start but it was fun, and created a clear divide between good and great players. Just as their is a clear divide between bad and good players.

In short give people the option to play how they want and let the community decide. Sure some players may be kicked from groups due to their play style differences but is that really an issue? All it means was the their was a difference in play style it is not inherently a personal attack or anything. Accept it and move on.

[ForteNightshade]

If a healer dpsing literally means a wipe or not in "casual" content (as you describe yourself as a casual healer), there are very serious issues at play, because it's been stated many, many times that healer dps is never required to do any content; and only "useful" to groups pushing cutting edge endgame content to squeak a win out ahead of another group slightly faster.

Healer dps is a nice bonus, a cherry on your ice cream sundae, not the entire dang bowl of ice cream. You can live without it, it's just a little faster and a little nicer with it. It does not "mean the life or wipe of an entire party" unless your party has very, very bad dps or something.

A healer that does zero DPS borders on completely worthless. If you had a Red Mage filling their spot or three DPS and a Paladin, that comp is both faster and more beneficial than a healer who stands around doing absolutely nothing but spamming useless heals. It's also a matter of principle. Why should DPS or tanks be expected to utilize their full kits but a healer isn't? More often than not it simply boils down to the healer multi-tasking Youtube, Netflix and etc. You're also vastly underestimating how much healers can contribute in an AoE situation. They can equal or surpass tanks. So by that logic, Dark Knight should be able to do an Unleash combo and afk, right? After all, they've established aggro.

[SamRF]

If a healer dpsing literally means a wipe or not in "casual" content (as you describe yourself as a casual healer), there are very serious issues at play, because it's been stated many, many times that healer dps is never required to do any content; and only "useful" to groups pushing cutting edge endgame content to squeak a win out ahead of another group slightly faster.

Healer dps is a nice bonus, a cherry on your ice cream sundae, not the entire dang bowl of ice cream. You can live without it, it's just a little faster and a little nicer with it. It does not "mean the life or wipe of an entire party" unless your party has very, very bad dps or something.

Hasn't this been debunked a bunch of times (for high-end content)? Even if it is possible to meet DPS checks with healers doing 0 dmg, it will be significantly more difficult, good luck doing that in Party Finder or midtier groups.

[KageTokage]

Healer DPS makes things easier for everybody by virtue of killing the boss faster and thus having to deal with less mechanics, which means less damage to heal through and less risk of people dying and needing to be revived.

Fights like Bismark and the golem in Qarn that have vulnerability periods are made especially less tedious with healer DPS as you're probably not going to be able to one/two cycle them respectively unless your healer(s) are contributing, which adds an additional minute or two to the fight.