General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Granyala]

but people get hellbent sometimes that a healer HAS to be dpsing or they're a "bad" healer

Hmm... I don't see it quite that way.
A healer has to be ACTIVE or it's a bad healer. Simple as that.
Healing should obviously be priority #1 at all times but any healer should try to minimize the downtime as much as possible.

Inexperienced people are excluded from the above, I'd rather have them standing idle, focusing on healing/mechanics until they grasp the encounter and are experienced enough to know when to DPS and when to do other stuff. Much more efficient learning curve than trying to do EVERYTHING™ from the get go.

[Liam_Harper]

I bring this up every time there's a debate about healer dps, but not all healers are created equal, and not all of us are comfortable dpsing all the time in every single situation--which should be fine--! but people get hellbent sometimes that a healer HAS to be dpsing or they're a "bad" healer, throwing literally every other bit of reasoning out the window for it.

No, a healer has to be efficiently using their toolkit, or they're a "bad" healer.

That means constantly casting, using either dps or the best healing ability for the situation, without wasting mana on unnecessary overheals or having downtime. Or at the very least attempting to get this mostly right. You don't need high percentile damage, just at least try to push what you can in low-healing situations. If you have to spam heal a paper tank to keep them alive and can't weave dps, that's fine too, you're using your toolkit efficiently for the given situation.

If Healer A can keep the entire party alive and weave in decent dps, they're far more valuable to the group than Healer B who can only keep the entire party alive. It's that simple really.

And yes, you don't "need" healer dps in casual content but that still means you're a bad player for neglecting it. You're only playing a fraction of the optimal, like a dps doing less than half the average for a player of their ilv.

[Sylve]

No, a healer has to be efficiently using their toolkit, or they're a "bad" healer.

So can i apply that to Red Mages then? I will now expect them to cast Vercures on the regular so that they're "Efficiently" using their toolkit.

I expect Summoners to hardcast Raises and spam Physik too, because I'm busy "efficiently" using my toolkit.

Tossing a Glare or Malefic while everyone is full and no healing is required should be encouraged. The problem is the mentality from the general community that every GCD ever has to be a DPS spell otherwise you're "holding the team back". New Healers try to do that, fail miserably, get yelled at and quit Healing. Or staunchly refuse to toss a Glare out because theyve only had bad experiences trying in the past.

I would also like to point out that I've had dungeon runs be faster with a non-DPS Healer compared to subsequent runs where the Healer is near matching the Tank on DPS.
Healer DPS is negligible compared to whether or not the DPS are playing to the best of their ability.
They've said on multiple occasions that Healer dps isn't factored into clear requirements. I'm not even sure if they've ever confirmed outright that Savage requires Healers to DPS.

What's truly hilarious to me is that the Community complains that Healing is too easy and they spend so much time DPSing, yet any time a suggestion is made that would tune up the Healing requirement so that we spend more GCDs on Healing than DPS, it becomes "too stressful to healers" or they don't want to cast Cures instead of Glares.
Also, the response to my sarcasm in the first two lines will no doubt be along the lines of 'No because the DPS aren't there to Heal'. And yet the Healer has to do the damage dealers job while also doing their own job or they're bad. OK.

[Mansion]

So can i apply that to Red Mages then? I will now expect them to cast Vercures on the regular so that they're "Efficiently" using their toolkit.

I expect Summoners to hardcast Raises and spam Physik too, because I'm busy "efficiently" using my toolkit.
[...]
Also, the response to my sarcasm in the first two lines will no doubt be along the lines of 'No because the DPS aren't there to Heal'. And yet the Healer has to do the damage dealers job while also doing their own job or they're bad. OK

In analogy to "healers should DPS", that would be "DPS need to minimize damage taken" with Bloodbath, Second Wind, mitigation and that kind of stuff. It's just about being as efficient as you can doing extras out of your role. Healers have the most downtime of the three roles once they have reached what's expected from them (keeping people alive when you can).

I'm a pro DPS-healer, and I won't shout at a healer that occasionally casts a Cure / Benefic / Physic. It happens, it's part of how you adapt to a random situation. But sitting here doing nothing because there is no healing required, I do think that's being a dead-weight to the team, just like a DPS that does not know its rotation, or anyone not knowing basic fight mechanics 80 levels in the game.

In the end, in casual content there's no argument to have. A dungeon will remain a brain dead instance for everyone. But if healers had more interesting systems for their downtime (be it DPS, buff or else), it would make "pro" healers happier, and casual healers would not be pressured into it during a dungeon.

[Sylve]

I do think that's being a dead-weight to the team

And this right here is what disgusts me about the whole argument. Dead weight is someone who contributes nothing to the success of the run. AKA, someone off AFK in a corner.

Take a Healer who never casts damage spells. Run a dungeon. You finished it, right? With no complications? Right.
Now take a Healer who never casts a Heal. Run the dungeon. How far did you get? Not very far.
One of these is a dead weight. The other is a run of the mill Healer.

The entire point of a Healer is to keep the party alive. Anything you do beyond that basic task is a bonus to the party. Just like Dancers who use Shield Samba and Curing Waltz properly to lighten the load on the Healer, or a melee DPS using Feint and Bloodbath.
We don't scream at DPS for not using the more supportive buttons in their kits. We encourage their use, sure. But never to the disturbing degree that Healers get shat on over DPS.

A Healer who never damages is just as effective for the party in their primary role as a Healer who is comfortable and capable of pushing damage between Heals. If they weren't there to Heal you, You would be dead.

We should be encouraging people to find openings to do damage, not shoving the "MUST DO MAX DEEPS OR BOOT" mentality down their throats.

[Liam_Harper]

So can i apply that to Red Mages then? I will now expect them to cast Vercures on the regular so that they're "Efficiently" using their toolkit.

I expect Summoners to hardcast Raises and spam Physik too, because I'm busy "efficiently" using my toolkit.

Tossing a Glare or Malefic while everyone is full and no healing is required should be encouraged. The problem is the mentality from the general community that every GCD ever has to be a DPS spell otherwise you're "holding the team back". New Healers try to do that, fail miserably, get yelled at and quit Healing. Or staunchly refuse to toss a Glare out because theyve only had bad experiences trying in the past.

I would also like to point out that I've had dungeon runs be faster with a non-DPS Healer compared to subsequent runs where the Healer is near matching the Tank on DPS.
Healer DPS is negligible compared to whether or not the DPS are playing to the best of their ability.
They've said on multiple occasions that Healer dps isn't factored into clear requirements. I'm not even sure if they've ever confirmed outright that Savage requires Healers to DPS.

What's truly hilarious to me is that the Community complains that Healing is too easy and they spend so much time DPSing, yet any time a suggestion is made that would tune up the Healing requirement so that we spend more GCDs on Healing than DPS, it becomes "too stressful to healers" or they don't want to cast Cures instead of Glares.
Also, the response to my sarcasm in the first two lines will no doubt be along the lines of 'No because the DPS aren't there to Heal'. And yet the Healer has to do the damage dealers job while also doing their own job or they're bad. OK.

What? ...You do know what efficient means, right? It doesn't mean wasting GcD's on unnecessary baby-heals or hard-casting raises outside of an emergency. However, using swift raises when the healers Swiftcast is down, or using Vercure when both healers are dead, the boss is at 1% and a fatal raidwide is incoming is certainly efficient use of that toolkit and marks a good player.

No one is telling new healers that every GcD must be dps. There's no point twisting what we're saying into something ridiculous so you can defend playing poorly. You even quoted me, where I specifically stated spam healing is perfectly fine if the situation requires it. No one is going to kick the new guy for not spamming dps in dungeons either, but if they want to be a better player they'll try to fit some in where they can.

If you've never had a dungeon where a healer doing dps is faster than one doing 0, you've been running with terrible healers. Do you know how much we can do with Holy, Assize and a well time Afflatus Misery on a large pull? Healer dps certainly isn't negligible. Having 2 good healers on a raid team compared to 0 damage healers is like adding a 5th high end dps for free. It's extremely valuable.

We've actually proven multiple times and done the math, Savage 100% requires healer dps.

I'd like to know where you're reading that the community would find more healing requirement stressful. I love high healing fights. Messy runs and early progression are where I like healing most. Many of us are begging for more to heal, we have a powerful toolkit and we want to use it to its full potential. We're bored to death of spamming 2 buttons, but we'll still do it because we want to contribute as much as possible to our teams.

[ForteNightshade]

So can i apply that to Red Mages then? I will now expect them to cast Vercures on the regular so that they're "Efficiently" using their toolkit.

I expect Summoners to hardcast Raises and spam Physik too, because I'm busy "efficiently" using my toolkit.

Tossing a Glare or Malefic while everyone is full and no healing is required should be encouraged. The problem is the mentality from the general community that every GCD ever has to be a DPS spell otherwise you're "holding the team back". New Healers try to do that, fail miserably, get yelled at and quit Healing. Or staunchly refuse to toss a Glare out because theyve only had bad experiences trying in the past.

... you do understand what "efficiently" means, yes? A Red Mage using Vercure isn't efficient unless it's to save someone from dying because things have already gone horribly wrong. Lemme tell you, if you pull off a Vercure in E5S that saves a Dragoon when the healers couldn't for whatever reason, you'll get anything but criticism. Likewise, Physick is so laughably weak on Summoner it shouldn't be on your hotbar.

I know you're intentionally being facetious here but your mock rebuttal still needs to make sense. It doesn't because nothing you described would be considered "efficient".

As for the general community. This is blatantly untrue. You look around here, reddit or Balance—all considered "toxic" by at least a handful—and you'll still see most arguments on healer DPS boiling down to "be activate." In the overwhelming majority of cases, no one will complain if a healer contributes decent damage. Now a new healer may interpret that incorrectly, but that isn't on the community. Many people, even good players, overestimate their abilities. Or try to skip ahead instead of practicing.

They've said on multiple occasions that Healer dps isn't factored into clear requirements. I'm not even sure if they've ever confirmed outright that Savage requires Healers to DPS.

People need to stop quoting this. First and foremost, it was said in 2015. The game as evolved substantially since there. More importantly, it's factually wrong at this given time. I suspect Yoshida meant once players are geared, healer DPS won't be a factor. But as it stands, no. It was straight up impossible to kill Shiva in the first couple weeks without healer DPS. A single DPS death and you were done. While Ramuh you could certainly get away with that, it was only due to his hilariously long enrage. It also puts significantly more pressure on the party since you'll have to deal with Fury's Fourteen and Chain Lightning a second two; mechanics that essentially one-shot you if failed.

Also, the response to my sarcasm in the first two lines will no doubt be along the lines of 'No because the DPS aren't there to Heal'. And yet the Healer has to do the damage dealers job while also doing their own job or they're bad. OK.

Damage is everyone's job. The whole reason tanks and healers have a simplistic DPS kit is to accommodate for their hybrid nature. Mitigation and healing will always be finite. There is no point to casting Medica II when everyone's at 80% and there isn't any raid AoE coming up as they'll naturally tick up. Likewise, pooling 40% worth of mitigation on a tank buster you could easily take with Rampart wastes it when spacing out said cooldowns means less incoming damage overall. Damage, on the other hand, is valuable because well, you don't need mitigation or healing if the thing is dead.

[Deceptus]

I don't mind when healers DPS.

I object to attitudes about healer DPS when it's:

A) expected in all situations regardless of anything else that may be a consideration;
B) I have to play with healers who prioritize DPS over healing (and usually cause deaths/wipes).

I don't care if anyone wants to DPS as a healer, as long as healing is still their main priority.

I bring this up every time there's a debate about healer dps, but not all healers are created equal, and not all of us are comfortable dpsing all the time in every single situation--which should be fine--! but people get hellbent sometimes that a healer HAS to be dpsing or they're a "bad" healer, throwing literally every other bit of reasoning out the window for it.

Some healers aren't very well geared, some of their tanks are badly geared. Sometimes groups struggle with mechanics and the healer has to compensate (Every mechanic becomes a healer mechanic on a long enough time line!) and the healer dpsing just isn't always feasible, and I wish more people understood that.

If you're not always casting something every GCD you are a sub par player. Simple as that.

If you're casting heals when people are over 75-80%, you're a sub par player. Simple as that. Hell I'm comfortable at sub 40% but this value changes person to person.

If you're casting those heals out of spite for some self imposed "pure healer" mindset despite the game telling you multiple times that you should do damage when everyone is relatively healthy, you are indeed a bad player.

Quite simply: Healer is the only role in the game punished by WORSE gameplay (2 button DPS rotation) by playing WELL (healing efficiently).

[Awha]

Meh, give people the option to do juggle healing and damage. If people want to play as a pure healer so be it they can find liked minded players that do not mind it.

However, those that enjoy playing as a healer have no option outside of playing a dps class, and when they are healing the other is to spam one or two buttons throughout the run.

I get more buttons does not mean more complex, but having more things to press beats having less. Granted I would just prefer them to bring back cleric stance swapping I enjoyed it greatly trying to maximize cleric uptime while not letting people die. Sure I let many tanks die pushing my limits at the start but it was fun, and created a clear divide between good and great players. Just as their is a clear divide between bad and good players.

In short give people the option to play how they want and let the community decide. Sure some players may be kicked from groups due to their play style differences but is that really an issue? All it means was the their was a difference in play style it is not inherently a personal attack or anything. Accept it and move on.

[KageTokage]

Healer DPS makes things easier for everybody by virtue of killing the boss faster and thus having to deal with less mechanics, which means less damage to heal through and less risk of people dying and needing to be revived.

Fights like Bismark and the golem in Qarn that have vulnerability periods are made especially less tedious with healer DPS as you're probably not going to be able to one/two cycle them respectively unless your healer(s) are contributing, which adds an additional minute or two to the fight.