General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Hazama999]

I feel like I wouldn't care so much about my 2-3 buttons for DPSing as a healer if the healing was more engaging... That said, I'm not entirely sure how this could be made so without some big changes. One idea I had floating about was of different kinds of healing damage which would necessitate different kinds of skills. In real life, there are instances where different protocols or algorithms are followed depending on how a patient presents. Here's a simple example for a patient presentation with a possible acute coronary syndrome:



Now before you roast me alive, I know the comparison is not perfect. In-game, I find it unlikely that you'd be triaging someone for a possible myocardial infarction in the middle of combat but the algorithm serves to illustrate the kind of decision-making that often goes into... well, medicine. I am also not saying that the nuances of real-life medical care should somehow find their way into FFXIV, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't yearning for a bit more complexity. As others have pointed out, it feels like you're just making bars up when they go down and I find that much too reductionistic to be engaging. There is some modicum of complexity to be had right now since you also gotta know when damage is dished out... but that's more of an encounter design consideration rather than the healing itself.

[GrimGale]

One idea I had floating about was of different kinds of healing damage which would necessitate different kinds of skills.

There ARE different damages to heal currently in the game. Also known as dispellable debuffs. But it's a mechanic that barely happens anymore. We used to have a fairy that had the ability to cleanse debuffs to the whole party. It was removed. Bard has a skill that prevents debuffs. We have had Esuna for a long time. We barely use it anymore. (Though it is required for the current Savage tier final boss in one or two of the twenty mechanics)

In FFXI there were a plethora of Bar- Spells that would protect you and your party from specific ailments and incoming elemental damage. Currently we have skills that mitigate magic damage (Even though we have no in-game feed back as to wether the damage we're taking is magical or physical.)

So it's a mixed bag. Clearly the game can have those "face incoming events with A or B" but they don't happen often enough to be given much attention.

[Jaelommiss]

One idea I had floating about was of different kinds of healing damage which would necessitate different kinds of skills.

Suppose they bring back TP. Optimal rotations for most classes will be adjusted to be either MP or TP negative. Weaker rotations would exist that are MP/TP neutral. Instead of just managing HP, healers are also responsible for maintaining party MP and TP. So long as healers keep HP from reaching 0 no one will die, but party dps will drop dramatically if MP or TP run out.

It'd be a massive deviation from how healing is generally approached, but I could see it making the game more interesting. Some classes (BLM) would be entirely self contained. Others (DRK) would be able to dump excess resources into damage. I expect there would be backlash from tanks and dps whose optimal rotations would become dependent on their healer.

[Billythepancake]

But I already have 4 buttons to press that aren't a rotation. I have my DoT, I have my single target button, I have my AoE. I have Energy Drain. When I played SCH 12 months ago, I had 1 more DoT and an ability that spread the DoTs but meant I couldn't really risk using Energy Drain as well in case I needed my Aether charges to save people. I'd only be comfortable having no charges if it was about to come off cooldown. So effectively I had one more button. I'm not sure how deciding to use Bane rather than Energy Drain is so much more entertaining than popping on my DoT, hitting my direct attack as often as possible and throwing in my Energy Drain if I don't think I'll need the charge for something else?

I'm obviously missing something really significant here .... I am not sure how you can argue I'm doing less thinking, I'm doing exactly the same amount of thinking, I just don't have a button for Miasma to press. I mean, I could maybe get behind an argument that Bane would be more useful than Energy Drain and need more thought, but then you're asking unconfident healers to risk a charge on a mandatory Bane or be called incompetent .... which is pretty much why the healer DPS kit changed in the first place

You're missing Miasma II and shadowflare as well, which both also had single target applications, as well as shadowflare offering mitigation with the slow it provided. You also had the SB version of cleric stance, which you wanted to use on CD if possible, and fey wind if you want to include that into the mix.

As for asking unconfident healers to do anything or calling them bad, I don't think I've ever run into anyone, outside of savage, that got mad at a healer for playing unoptimally, ever. I just don't know where people meet these people

[Derio]

It comes down to is the the job fun to play. That is the real question. If incoming damage increased then yes, all of the healing jobs would be fun to play. But that is not the case and IMO SCH has the worst changes and is simply a shell of its former self.

[Billythepancake]

snip

Absolutely hate this mentality. It is never your co-healers fault for a wipe or because you could not DPS, that is such an unhealthy mindset to have. I had a savage fight where my cohealer literally healed less than the WAR and I still did more DPS than her or either tank, unless you're at ultimate level content, your cohealer is not the reason you can't use your kit to it's fullest, I don't care how braindead they are.

As for rezzing, I have a couple of questions. Why did they die? Was it my fault? Do I have swift up? If I dont have swift up and they died because of their own stupidity, then they'll wait until either someone else grabs them or when I have swift up. I'm my being punished because someone else made a big dumb. If it is my fault, then yeah, I'll own up to my mistakes and take the time out to slow rez if swift is down.

And, as a tip, just because people are missing health does not mean they need to be healed. Just because they're missing 90% of their health does not mean they need to be healed. If you're missing most of your MP from healing then you're flat out healing too much. Look back and ask "how many of those heals were necessary". And, tbh, I think I'd rather have a co-healer that Chads me, over one that spammed heals. At least the Chad I know is doing something useful for the team, even if it is costing me a GCD here or there that it shouldn't.


I don't even want a full blown rotation. Just give me more dots and more timers to watch. That is all I want. If a new/bad/unconfident healer drops a dot here, or a shadowflare timer there, nobody cares outside of savage. If you don't want to use them then don't, but the people who choose to get better at the game shouldn't be punished for doing well.

[GrimGale]

It comes down to is the the job fun to play. That is the real question. If incoming damage increased then yes, all of the healing jobs would be fun to play. But that is not the case and IMO SCH has the worst changes and is simply a shell of its former self.

Fun is subjective. We all understand that I think. That's why some people prefer this iteration of healers. Others find them boring and repetitive.

That's why it's useful to provide objective data, such as Logs. You get to see what healers spend most their time doing: Surprise, it's not healing.

Not that not healing is a bad thing. I imagine spamming heals on tank would be as boring as spamming dps spells on boss. I believe the qualm some healers have with the current game design around their role is the fact that neither of the two venues either mindlessly spamming heals, or midnlessly spamming dps spells is engaging or satisfying. Weaving the two together seem to keep some satisfied though. Choices, meaninful managing of resources, and the feeling of being useful to your party as support seems to be what most people play healer after all.

[Saefinn]

Whilst fun is subjective, what I guess really frustrates me is that SE has a fantastic way of satisfying different people's desires when it comes to healers and ways of satisfying multiple camps and it is staring everybody right in the face.

It is by having different jobs fulfilling the same role. As dumb and obvious as it sounds saying it.

White Mage in this game traditionally was a relatively simple healer that felt powerful to play in both the kind of DPS it did and the healing it did.
Scholar felt more strategic and planned to make up for it being having lower numbers in terms of heals (but had other tool to make up for it), so it was a little tactical. Its DPS was more focused on a sustained DPS rather than big numbers via a series of DoTs, perhaps in homage to FFXI's SCH, which had a DoT focused DPS.
Astrologian felt more adaptable and versatile, lending to a more technical state of play, which translated a little to how it contributed to the party in its down time, by offering enhancement via its card system and the skills the expanded its use. Then a basic set of DPS skills.

These all appealed to different kinds of healers and people who had different ideas about how their healers should play.

We've also encountered another type of player who prefers a simpler DPS so they don't have to focus on a rotation and maybe want to think more about their healing, maybe something even more approachable for people put off by current healer jobs. It's absolutely fine to want this. And they too could have been satisfied with a 4th healer to meet those needs, instead of imposing them on existing healer jobs. I HOPE that SE will return some of the design philosophy that made the 3 current healers great and apply the design philosophy we've got from 5.0 into the 4th healer for 6.0. Sure some people who liked WHM/SCH/AST in 5.0 will be unhappy, but they will have a new job that fulfils the design philosophies that better worked for them, whilst those who already liked the jobs they had before get what they liked and they get the design philosophies that worked before for them.

When we start talking about how healers should feel to play overall, we are in a sense talking about making them play in the same way. When really, each should play in their own way to satisfy what different people got out of playing a healing job. And I'd argue pre SB and ShB, that's what we had (SB felt like it moved somewhat in the direction we are in now and ShB took it further).

[Ceasaria]

The whole picture, has AST players either constantly fishing for expanded Balances (so the whole RNG thing is a waste of time) or having their core healer kit (Bole and Ewer) at the mercy of RNG (objectively detrimental to them as a Healer)

Balance - ironically the only balanced card in the set.

Your character is suffering from blindness, I guess.

But no, I'm sure you enjoyed having such a janky RNG system to fight against. I'm sure it was a blast!

Still a shame to see a lack of understanding of the previous AST version.
But now you have your new version and enjoying it, why are you rainding with GNB ?

[Liam_Harper]

Absolutely hate this mentality. It is never your co-healers fault for a wipe or because you could not DPS, that is such an unhealthy mindset to have. I had a savage fight where my cohealer literally healed less than the WAR and I still did more DPS than her or either tank, unless you're at ultimate level content, your cohealer is not the reason you can't use your kit to it's fullest, I don't care how braindead they are.

Exactly.

To add to that, it's very often a misconception by less experienced players that their co-heal isn't healing or they have to carry the heals, when in fact they're simply sniping them by automatically topping people off when damage hits.
A good healer will map the fight out. Let's say a raidwide aoe hits and knocks everyone to 20%. I know the next raidwide damage is about 25 sec away, Assize is up in 15 seconds and the group are all within Asylum range. I have it covered. However, my cohealer has no knowledge of the fight, sees damage and immediately drops Medica II then another Medica I to be safe. My well planned Asylum and Assize are wasted, overheal and my co-heal looks great on hps.
That's fine. I don't expect my co-heal to know the fight perfectly, people didn't die, it's all good. But don't assume I wasn't healing.
I also often find the "but people were dying to normal raidwides and boss autos and my co heal was spamming dps" stories are just fabrication to make their misjudged view carry weight. Yes you do occasionally get healers who don't heal at all, but in my experience it's extremely rare compared to the number of healers who are simply being efficient.

As for raise, if swiftcast is 20 sec or less away, I'll wait for it. 8 seconds downtime is rough.