The current job design system is not fit for purpose

[RyuDragnier]

well to be fair asking to dark arts come back doesn't mean bring back the level of dark arts spam back, i will love dark arts come back as a HW rate, still i didn't mind the SB one but HW one was the sweet spot.

HW DRK was basically perfection. It didn't need to be touched, it didn't need changes. Sadly that didn't stop SE from "fixing" what didn't need to be fixed. I'm sadly expecting GNB to get a similar treatment for the next expansion, while the "golden boy" PLD will be untouched yet again, and probably get more things it doesn't need that will be ripped from the other tanks (no, I still won't forgive them for destroying HW DRK to give PLD things it didn't need).

[shao32]

HW DRK was basically perfection. It didn't need to be touched, it didn't need changes. Sadly that didn't stop SE from "fixing" what didn't need to be fixed. I'm sadly expecting GNB to get a similar treatment for the next expansion, while the "golden boy" PLD will be untouched yet again, and probably get more things it doesn't need that will be ripped from the other tanks (no, I still won't forgive them for destroying HW DRK to give PLD things it didn't need).

i will kill for have HW DRK back again, probably i should start sacrificing lalafells or something bcs the other methods to make the devs listen are not working ^^

[Melichoir]

I'm personally disappointed about the DRK rework. I did not expect them to just literally slap a My Chemical Romance album to WAR and call it DRK.
I would've personally preferred Dark Arts back rather than Edge and Flood of Shadow. Delirium BS spam isn't even as satisfying as WAR's IR spam.

This made me laugh pretty good.

But yeah, There is nothing engaging about Delirium. It's do your combo till you can use it, then pop the CD and smash your BS hotkey till the timer runs out. The reason it works better for Warrior is that you have to manage a lot more with IR, along with lining it up with two OGCDs, and balancing it against Infuriate as to not overcap on that. There is a lot more nuance to it. DRK used to have that nuance with DA because you had to control when you did it in the oGCD but also manage mana to maximize damage during your burst windows. Now its as I described above - push a combo 3 times, press CD, spam Bloodspiller. Thats it. The only nuance is making sure yu have enough SKS to get 5 BS inside the window.

I'd rather delete DRK from the game than to ever deal with DA spam again. Seriously, that was the least fun thing in this game, and I think Edge and Flood are better than that nonsense. I do agree however that they could have done a lot more. I don't like that DRK is the only tank with a single DPS combo, and a return of our HW combo would have been greatly appreciated.

Honestly I share Payotz opinion. DA is infinitely more interesting to do than the current iteration. Right now its just less carpal tunnel, but its spam all the same. Use EoS until you hve 3k mana left and get your blood gauge up to spam out BS under Delirium. It's disappointingly brain dead.


That being said, dont return HW combo to us. Give us back HW DRK. It was a difficult kit, but it was fun. HW DRK is easily the pinnacle of DRK IMO.

[KalinOrthos]

Anyone who says Ninja, Monk, Dragoon, and Samurai, or Black Mage, Summoner and Red Mage, or Dancer, Bard, and Machinist feel similar are absolutely full of it, or are just looking from the outside in. The tanks have the issue of feeling rather homogenized, true, but Gunbreaker and Paladin still have enough uniqueness to them to make them feel different enough to play and have fun with. Dark Knight also has a lot of ability expression as well, though at times it can feel just as shallow as Warrior, which 100% got the short end of the stick this expansion. Can't feel too bad about that last one, though, they were kings of the mountain for a LOOOONG time.

[Melichoir]

Anyone who says Ninja, Monk, Dragoon, and Samurai, or Black Mage, Summoner and Red Mage, or Dancer, Bard, and Machinist feel similar are absolutely full of it, or are just looking from the outside in. The tanks have the issue of feeling rather homogenized, true, but Gunbreaker and Paladin still have enough uniqueness to them to make them feel different enough to play and have fun with. Dark Knight also has a lot of ability expression as well, though at times it can feel just as shallow as Warrior, which 100% got the short end of the stick this expansion. Can't feel too bad about that last one, though, they were kings of the mountain for a LOOOONG time.

The thing is that GNB feels like its own thing by a vastly wider margin when compared to other tanks, compared to when you compare PLD to DRK and War. Its noticeable.

PLD is more unique compared to DRK and War, but it still does have part of the same issue: Use a CD to spam a single skill multiple times for the duration. It's not as bad as War adn DRK but it still needs some work. Why even have such a skill when you literally have a class that has a shield. There's a lot of creativity they could have that revolves around Shields that wouldnt need them to resort to letting PLD be a caster for 10 seconds. And as for War, I think that stems from an issue with numbers and the flexibility of Holmgang.

[Montiness]

Using a gamepad myself, and not one of these players that run 10 hotbars full of crap and spam keys whilst looking through a tiny hole in the hud that isn't cluttered to see what's happening, having more buttons to map will only make certain roles unplayable on gamepad.

As it is I have macros set up via extended chotbar controls that centralize on a party member, but are set up for use by multiple classes ie: healing for all healing classes.

If you were going to whine about anything in shadowbringers I thought it might be the storyline itself...

"They're effectively ghosts unable to interact with the world"
... but can somehow fight, carry kill, be killed, etc etc etc.

[RVallant]

Yeah, I'd rather not have skill bloat personally.

I won't dispute that some classes could do with some more work for variety purposes though.

[LittleImp]

If Job design is so bad how come 11 million players and growing? Check & mate OP.

The game is actually down 180,000 active characters between the previous two census'. Active characters only hover around 1 million btw, with the most recent census indicating ~840k.

[KalinOrthos]

The thing is that GNB feels like its own thing by a vastly wider margin when compared to other tanks, compared to when you compare PLD to DRK and War. Its noticeable.

PLD is more unique compared to DRK and War, but it still does have part of the same issue: Use a CD to spam a single skill multiple times for the duration. It's not as bad as War adn DRK but it still needs some work. Why even have such a skill when you literally have a class that has a shield. There's a lot of creativity they could have that revolves around Shields that wouldnt need them to resort to letting PLD be a caster for 10 seconds. And as for War, I think that stems from an issue with numbers and the flexibility of Holmgang.

Warrior's key issue was that stance dancing was their whole schtick, balancing the need to soak damage with rolling out as many Fell Cleaves as possible. I maintain that removing tank and DPS stances were the best thing to happen to tanking in this game, but unfortunately, Warrior got nothing to compensate for removing half of the fun playing them.

[Shurrikhan]

Warrior's key issue was that stance dancing was their whole schtick, balancing the need to soak damage with rolling out as many Fell Cleaves as possible. I maintain that removing tank and DPS stances were the best thing to happen to tanking in this game, but unfortunately, Warrior got nothing to compensate for removing half of the fun playing them.

Warrior, especially, makes me feel like they should have kept defensive/offensive stancing to some degree. On Paladin that could easily be through, say, shield skills and shared resource spenders rather than Sword Oath and Shield Oath (especially if the devs would refuse to come up with a more fluid and less taxing means of changing between the two that didn't merely copy Warrior), while Dark Knight would just base its defense on weaponskills and its mana spenders and Gunbreaker on its ammo choices and perhaps certain choices in oGCD tempo, but I think it was a huge loss not to have significant control over our mitigation vs. offense, especially if it could have instead been granted through far more active means (less to do with Defiance passive eHP, far more to do with Inner Beast itself, etc.). It'd just need some real threats to face, but that'd be a change for the better regardless, especially if healer damage potential were to be on the up-and-up and the mitigation choices less offensively wasteful.