Tanking in FF14 question

[Maeka]

I just pointed out you didn't differentiate between actions and actual buttons correctly?!

You mention mudras, and say they are 4 buttons that change into different actions, yet you count Gnashing Fang combo as 6 buttons?
You are doing a sequence of 4 different buttons that's 6 clicks long, but that doesn't mean you press 6 different buttons (on your hotbar).

You're actually saying it yourself during your own post, I don't get why are so upset?!

You're saying "It's not a 6 button combo because you're only pressing 4 buttons".

I'm saying "it is a 6 button combo because it's 6 button presses even if a few of those buttons are duplicates, it's still a sequence of 6 button presses that must be pressed in a specific order and cannot be broken up by anything other than an oGCD just like any other combo."

You then go "Mudras are 12 actions!" .... no.... Mudras are 4 button presses. Not 12. Not 9. They're 4. Well, between 2 and 4 anyhow. There are simply different versions of those that produce different effects, but you're still pressing between 2 and 4 buttons in a specific sequence, and they must be done exactly that way to get it to work (or, well, all but one have two different ways you could do it and get it to do what you want, if you wanted to get really semantic about it). You can't go counting all the combinations and treat it as if they are entirely one combo, lol. It doesn't work like that.

EDIT: Also I'm not seeing where you are getting the 6 button presses on Mudra thing. You use 3 different mudra and then the Ninjutsu button to activate it. That's only 4. You can't really count Kassatsu as being a part of that, if that's what you're referring to, because you could use Kassatsu, IIRC, and use a weaponskill inbetween Kassatsu and still get the Ninjutsu out. You get 15 seconds to execute your Ninjutsu which easily gives you time to land a weaponskill or two without interrupting it, so no, Kassatsu is not part of a combo. If you're referring to TCJ, then that doesn't even work because you activate TCJ, then do the 3 mudras and end up with 3 Ninjutsu, so you're still only doing a 4-button sequence.

Where are you getting the 6 buttons from? If you're trying to tell me that, say, a Huton+Katon = 6 button combo, that doesn't work because you could do Huton and then something else, and then Katon and as such, that's not all 1 combo, but 2 separate combos. /end edit

But I'm starting to get the feeling you're just trying to be a semantics troll, to be honest.

To be more clear, I'm defining a "combo" as a sequence of button presses that must be done in a specific order and cannot be interrupted or broken up by anything other than oGCD abilities otherwise the whole thing just falls apart. It either won't work, won't give you the effect you want, or just can't be done at all (the abilities are greyed out).

For example, Ninjutsu... If you do it the wrong way, you get the wrong Ninjutsu. Or, if you wait too long, you get a bunny and lose the whole thing. Using a non-oGCD ability during this is most likely (I think always? not sure) going to cause you to get a bunny because the window is very tiny between Mudra uses.
The GNB Gnashing Fang combo? If you use anything other than an oGCD, the combo you had going just plain ends right there, on the last non-oGCD ability and you lose the rest of the combo and quite a bit of DPS in so-doing.

And so it is with any other combo, the use of any non-oGCD weaponskill or spell breaks it. Therefore, I consider them the same as I do combos. Whether or not any button presses are duplicated (like Gnashing Fang) is irrelevant, because they are still needing to be done in order and cannot be interrupted in the middle of it or you lose the rest of the combo.

[Venur]

Many of you should probably take a brake from the game. Poeple tend to get bored of playing the same game and start to feel nostalgia.

Pld and the leveling game in general have drasticaly improved over the years but I think you just got bored to run the same content.

Leveling a pld used to be so dry That Ive never reached lvl 30 on that class prior 5.0.

Personaly Im not missing the days I was getting mad at blm who would spam too early and snag aggro from my warrior.

[MerlinCross]

Many of you should probably take a brake from the game. Poeple tend to get bored of playing the same game and start to feel nostalgia.

Pld and the leveling game in general have drasticaly improved over the years but I think you just got bored to run the same content.

Leveling a pld used to be so dry That Ive never reached lvl 30 on that class prior 5.0.

Personaly Im not missing the days I was getting mad at blm who would spam too early and snag aggro from my warrior.

Been having fun in a different MMO(Up till the grind walk hits and everything dies in a haze of laggy particles) so the break is warranted but here’s the thing; I still have fun on SAM, I still have fun on DRG. It’s only Tanks and mainly anything below what halfway though Stormblood that is boring to me either due to lack of skills or it’s So outdated and surpassed. I mean I’m falling asleep in Omega fights depending on which one it is.

The only time I actually have fun these days is when things go wrong or I have a new group coming in. A5 was fun to do when most the group had no clue about it. Was leveling worse before? Maybe but I still can’t bring myself to level certain classes due to how boring the leveling is.

Also why get annoyed at the BLM, Aggro was so brain dead easy you should have had no trouble taking it back.

[Venur]

What OGCDs are you talking about? 3... in total... for PLD. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.
You are really over valuing OGCDs on one of the two tanks that have the fewest OGCDs. Tanks aren't DPS, Paladin only gets a dot management and a requiscat that allows you to mash basically 1 button for 8 secs before using a different button at the end of it. OGCDs don't evolve any tank game play that much outside of DRK, at least GNB at some point you get a different combo to hit once every 30 secs... but still, it doesn't help nearly as much as DPS who have all sorts of different phases and windows to DPS as the jobs ebb and flow. Tanks? EBB? FLOW??? WHAT ARE THOSE??? All we have is wait for a cooldown and then we get to hit a few buttons that deal some kind of damage before.... back to playing a dry rotation until your cooldown is back up.

I dont get it ? You say that tank should play like a dps ?

Also I dont know what game your playing but im using over 2 full hotbar. Again I think you should just take a brake of this game.

[Maeka]

I dont get it ? You say that tank should play like a dps ?

Also I dont know what game your playing but im using over 2 full hotbar. Again I think you should just take a brake of this game.

Apparently these people want something like DRG or MNK, on a tank.

Now maybe these people who do Savage raiding can handle dealing with mitigation, and busting out complex rotations and button priorities while keeping control of all the enemies, while keeping their mitigation buttons in mind, and having an idea as when they should use what, paying attention to what the boss is actually doing (esp. with tankbusters) etc...

But the average player is nowhere near up there, and that's why tanks don't have complex rotations like DPS jobs do.

Same reason I roll my eyes at healers who think they need a 4-5 button combo with conditionals for DPS, ontop of all of their healing duties. Yeah, okay, the savage players asking for that could perhaps handle that... but your average player, couldn't.

[ReiMakoto]

Apparently these people want something like DRG or MNK, on a tank.

Now maybe these people who do Savage raiding can handle dealing with mitigation, and busting out complex rotations and button priorities while keeping control of all the enemies, while keeping their mitigation buttons in mind, and having an idea as when they should use what, paying attention to what the boss is actually doing (esp. with tankbusters) etc...

But the average player is nowhere near up there, and that's why tanks don't have complex rotations like DPS jobs do.

Same reason I roll my eyes at healers who think they need a 4-5 button combo with conditionals for DPS, ontop of all of their healing duties. Yeah, okay, the savage players asking for that could perhaps handle that... but your average player, couldn't.

The average player isn't running content that would require you to be on point with that mitigation, or play in content that even requires it. Mitigation isn't something that takes much mental rescource anyway, its just use in response to cast. If you're running savage then knowing when to mitigate is something so scripted that its barely a consideration. A more in depth rotation would help experienced players get more fulfillment out of the role, and wouldn't hurt lesser skilled players as much, because they'll either be running in content where it doen't matter, or they'll have to get slightly better if they want to clear savage, which isn't much of a big ask when tank are currently the easiest role in the game in savage.

[Nedkel]

Same reason I roll my eyes at healers who think they need a 4-5 button combo with conditionals for DPS, ontop of all of their healing duties. Yeah, okay, the savage players asking for that could perhaps handle that... but your average player, couldn't.

Im not savage raider and even i think healers gameplay is haunted with chronic boredom.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Im not savage raider and even i think healers gameplay is haunted with chronic boredom.

I try to explain it like this to people;
You have an oGCD ability that heals 100 potency. 4min cooldown.
Then another, thats 100 potency, 4min cooldown.
then a 3rd, 100p, 4min cd.
then finally a 4th. again, 100p, 4m cd.
this LOOKS complex, but its really not, once you're used to it. Essentially this can be changed to one button, with a 1min CD, and 100 potency.
the only difference between them, is that the prior lets u burst it all in one go, and the 2nd allows for new abilities, so as not to have ability bloat.
while the prior isnt always wrong, it shouldnt ever be done just to make more filler moves. moves should have depth. i also dont mind having more options. but some options that are TOO situational, should have secondary effects, which can at least be useful a bit more often. (but not inherently tied to DPS. otherwise skills like gap closers, ppl will just use to keep DPS up)

an example: 3.0 PLD. Rage of halone combo was useless after the initial threat. and AoE became useless in 'most' of savage content.
So why not tie threat and aoe together, to minimize buttons? PLD would use flash for threat, not DPS. PLD would use RoH for threat, not DPS. so if you make a weak AoE, with high threat, on par with RoH, it can be used in the same way RoH is used on single target. This reduced the number of buttons by one already.
lastly, remove Shirk, and we go back to needing threat options after a voke again. (With the added bonus threat from voke, theres no reason to keep shirk really.)
this is of course an example of how you can turn "lesser" used abilities into a abilities used a bit more often. (They technically lower DPS, rather than raise it, so they are supportive instead. Because of this DPS loss, they better darn well be worth the trade off, which in the case of making sure enemies hit the tank, and not kill a DPS, its "technically" a DPS increase, even if personal DPS is lowered)

Back to the point... I agree, Healers arent complex. Adding some depth doesnt equate complexity. There's plenty added to them already for "complexity" thats just pointless filler. They need more depth, and interesting mechanics. Also, just leave WHm as the "basic" healer. If i feel like being lazy, I play WHM, when I wanted to try harder, I used to play AST or SCH. (now they just feel mostly the same. only a tiny bit of difference)

[Tigore]

I was just mentioning the GCD usage for the AoE rotation. The single target rotation has a little more meat to it. We also stop using the AoE GCD skills for single target unlike what happens with the WoW tanks. Circle of Scorn is still used being an off global cooldown. There are also mitigation cooldowns mentioned by the others. In a way, we can only fit so many spells on our keybinds after all. If they made the rotations more complex, some of the mitigation may have to be tied to the attacks then. Whether that works or not, I am not sure. I would have to see the planned kit first.

Single Target is something like this if we mostly look at the GCDs:

Physical:

Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade
Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Royal Authority
Atonement x 3
The Atonements have good mana regen here. You might be able to sneak in a spell cast of Clemency outside of a combo if needed. Clemency is a targeted healing spell.

Spell:

Requiescat at full mana > Holy Spirit x4 > Confiteor
Return back to the physical rotation

Also for the spell rotation, you can alternate Holy Circle or Holy Spirit for Clemency. But as something to know, you shouldn't need to use this heal very much. The healers in this game have strong off global cooldowns to get your health back up with ease. Either the healer has to be very reckless, rusty or panicked from "poo" hitting the fan for you to need to cast Clemency.

[Tigore]

I notice some talk about combos getting ruined if you don't follow the order, but there are a few exceptions. These weaponskills can be used in between a GCD combo without ruining anything.


Warrior: Beast Abilities like Fell Cleave and Decimate

Dark Knight: Bloodspiller and Quietus

Gunbreaker: Burst Strike and Fated Circle

Paladin used to have Flash, but that has been removed.


The Continuation off global combo is considered different from the other GCD combos and it states that it must be used after executing a particular GCD skill. Using any other GCD skill afterwards without capitalizing on Continuation will fizzle it out. You can still use the other off globals with it like Rampart or Blasting Zone.